Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[ukranianphil]

Did she get her time wrong when she said "She stood outside the whole time, between 12:30 and 1AM"?

I hope someone can clarify something as well.
In the witness statement on the casebook forum she says. She went into the yard, and saw a man touch the dead girl.
Yet in other ripper books like Phillip sugden "The complete history", she is said to have gone back inside her house and heard Louis Diemschutz pony and cart?

But if she was right about the time 12:30am, why did she not see stride across from the Club with the man P.C. smith saw when he passed by or why did she not see Charles letchford when he was walking up the street at 12:30am? and why did she not notice Letchfords sister outside her house at number 30 Berner street at 12:55am if she did go to the yard? And more puzzling, why did no one noticed her?

I think she got the time wrong. she must have went outside after PC. Smith passed, and i say it would have been nearer 12:35am and no later than 12:40am. unless it was not PC smith who passed her window? "Steady stomp of a police man" she said. If it was 12:35 she went out, i think the person she heard pass her window was the attacker who knew stride was with a client, and was waiting to rob stride, and that was what Israel schwarts saw at 12:45.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!

I would suggest using Dr. Blackwell's times as the points of reference and then work backwards. He had his own timepiece. Trying to fit different peoples approximations of time together is a losing battle for the most part. I am currently attempting it myself but it is slow going. I do not recall but I believe there are some dissertations that may be useful. I'll try to find and post them.

[ukranianphil]

Many thanks
There is another problem hear with time.
She said she saw a young man walking very quickly along Berner street, passed the club with a black shiny bag.
Now it has been established that it was leon goldstein and he said he left a coffee house just before 1am. How long would it take Mr. Goldstein to walk from the coffee house in specticle alley to Berner street? 3 or maybe 5 minutes?
so that means she must have been outside at 12:45am and no later than 12:55.

Am i taking mrs>mortimer at face value? she was never at the inquest, so perhaps the police did not believe her?

[DVV]

Tme to stop splitting Mrs Mortimer's hair imo.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

If I take your meaning...

Tme to stop splitting Mrs Mortimer's hair imo.

Agreed. Her times are approximations. Like everyone else's.The only times given that are probably accurate are Blackwell's.

[Michael W Richards]

Did she get her time wrong when she said "She stood outside the whole time, between 12:30 and 1AM"?

I hope someone can clarify something as well.
In the witness statement on the casebook forum she says. She went into the yard, and saw a man touch the dead girl.
Yet in other ripper books like Phillip sugden "The complete history", she is said to have gone back inside her house and heard Louis Diemschutz pony and cart?

But if she was right about the time 12:30am, why did she not see stride across from the Club with the man P.C. smith saw when he passed by or why did she not see Charles letchford when he was walking up the street at 12:30am? and why did she not notice Letchfords sister outside her house at number 30 Berner street at 12:55am if she did go to the yard? And more puzzling, why did no one noticed her?

I think she got the time wrong. she must have went outside after PC. Smith passed, and i say it would have been nearer 12:35am and no later than 12:40am. unless it was not PC smith who passed her window? "Steady stomp of a police man" she said. If it was 12:35 she went out, i think the person she heard pass her window was the attacker who knew stride was with a client, and was waiting to rob stride, and that was what Israel schwarts saw at 12:45.

I think that a report that states Fanny said that she was at the door "off and on" from half past 12 until 1am is likely the more accurate quote since Fanny never mentions what she may or may not have seen in the streets during that period between 12:30 and 12:50, when she begins a 10 minute vigil at her door. She only covers that specific time period by description, and we should be glad she did, because we know as a result of that that no-one was in front of the gates at 12:50, and that no-one left the yard before 1am.

Fanny was in and out of her home....likely she had clocks inside, therefore her estimates have to be much better than Louis, or Brown, or Spooner, or Eagle, or Lave, or Israel, or any of the witnesses that had no watch and were exposed to no time source just before their statements time stamp. Fanny did.

Blackwell had a watch....I think Johnson may have as well. So his estimate is important, he establishes the timeline with that cut time range. And it was approximately between 12:46 and 12:56....so, 1 minute after what Israel says happens out in the street at 12:45, and as Goldstein passes by the open gates. No-one leaves via the gates during that time.

Ergo...if Blackwells range was right....then Liz Stride was likely already in the passageway by 12:46 and her killer did not leave the premises by the open gates before 1am....when Louis says he arrives, without any corroboration from Fanny... at her door at the time.

Cheers

[Phil H]

Can we assume that Mrs M had "clocks" (simgular or plural) in her home.

I'd be interested in the basis of your assumption, which I think might not be valid for 1888.

I'm certainly not saying you are wrong - How could I? - but can we make that assumption, as we might well a few decades later?

Phil

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

To my knowledge, which is not as vast as others here, there is nothing to substantiate the claim that Fanny had any personal time telling devices. There is for Blackwell. Where there any churches etc in the immediate area that had a clock that the locals might have kept time by?

[DVV]

She's the kind of witness for whom "being there" was not enough.
She had to be there all along.
A bit like Mrs Long who could tell the age and the origin of a man she did not see.

[DRoy]

What did Mortimer gain by saying she was outside almost the entire time from 12:30 - 1:00? What does she admit too that gives the impression she was just after attention? She admits to not seeing Stride or anyone suspicious. If she was after attention that was her chance to get it.

She didn't say she was in her house most of the time, she says she was outside almost the entire time.

I would say she was probably a bit wrong in her time though. The one time she couldn't get wrong was around 1:00 when she went to bed, heard the pony and cart arrive and Stride being found. Since she was on the scene she would have heard from someone what time it was and could have estimated from that how long she was outside etc. If she didn't have a clock at home then any one of the club members, doctors, police could have said the time.

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Since she was on the scene she would have heard from someone what time it was and could have estimated from that how long she was outside etc.
Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy

Precisely : it's particularly difficult to estimate how long you have stayed here or there without watch.(Got this from Einstein.)
She said she was outside 10 minutes (estimation), she said she was home for 4 minutes when she heard the pony (estimation again).
I simply tend to believe she stayed outside less than 10 minutes, but spent time home ("preparing for bed") more than 4 minutes.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Dave,

Can you please show me where she is quoted as saying she was outside for 10 minutes? I don't recall reading that one.

I understand what you mean about estimating time but how wrong could she be about 4 minutes?

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Hi Roy

Evening News 1st October, "The Silence of the Murderer".

Cheers

[DRoy]

Dave,

That section of article isn't quoted, who knows where that came from. There are however two stories "Interview With a Neighbor" and "Other Important Statements" from the same paper the same day where she is quoted. The ten minutes you mention seem to be an invention by the writer or was a second hand story from a neighbor.

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Hi Roy,

if she were there all along (ie : from PC Smith passing by to 4 minutes before Diemshutz arrival), why did she see only Goldstein ?

Cheers