Eva Harstein

[GBinOz]

hi debs
thanks. well since no one at the inquest mentioned grapes and the drs said they found no traces in her stomach, that pretty much settles it for me. Packer probably sold grapes to some couple that night but not to Liz. IMHO his fabricated attention seeking stories kicked off the whole grape wild goose chase.

Hi Abby,

Not quite accurate. The Doctors found no pips or skins in her stomach. Most people spit out pips and I have known a few who don't like the skins on dark grapes. There would have been time for the pulp to be digested. There are too many witnesses referring to grapes to just discount the possiblity out of hand. Additionally, Packer saw the flower that Stride was wearing, unlike Brown and Marshall.

Cheers, George

[DJA]

The Coroner also desired me to examine the two handkerchiefs which were found on the deceased. I did not discover any blood on them, and I believe that the stains on the larger handkerchief are those of fruit. Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

[GBinOz]

The Coroner also desired me to examine the two handkerchiefs which were found on the deceased. I did not discover any blood on them, and I believe that the stains on the larger handkerchief are those of fruit. Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

What should we make of this. Nothing about the body was found to connect with grapes including a handkerchief with fruit stains?

Cheers, George

Edit: Answer is, perhaps, journalist augmentation.

This is from the Daily News 6 Oct:

I think also you, sir, requested me to examine the handkerchiefs. I have been unable to find any blood upon them, but I think the stains on the larger of them are those of fruit. I think it my duty to point out that I did not find any grapes in the hand of the deceased. I believe from an examination of the stomach that the deceased had not swallowed the skin or seed of a grape within many hours before her death.

This is from The Times 6 Oct:

I have also carefully examined the two handkerchiefs, and have not found any blood on them. I believe the stains on the larger one were fruit stains. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

My reading of these statements is that while Phillips said he did not find seeds or skin in the stomach, or grapes in her hand, the fruit stains on the handerkerchief indicate that grapes cannot be ruled out.

Cheers, George

[DJA]

Packer had a close up look at Stride's companion.

Then he was bullied out of being called as a witness.

Berry suspicious.

[GBinOz]

I still try to look at things with the idea that the grapes existed as well. Though there is still the problem, for me, of how the grapes spotted by Deimschitz and Kozebrodski became just a grape stalk? Do ponies eat grapes? That's not a joke question either!

Hi Debs,

You asked a serious question. I'm not sure that the suggestion I have can be taken seriously but, I have seen posted that Spooner was the only person to be close to Stride prior to the arrival Johnston who made no mention of grapes. The suggestion made by the poster, FWIW, was that the grapes may have fallen from Stride's hand when Spooner was examining her and he picked them up and ate them.

Cheers, George

[DJA]

I think that traces of Cachous may have been evident in the stomach. My understanding is that Cashous were a lozenge type breath freshener and Victorian Chemist and Druggist recipes list one of the main ingredients in the recipe as starch, as in 'farinaceous powder'?

Debs

Many tablets have a Clag like base which is made in a bucket from starch and boiling hot water.
That is then tipped into a mixing machine with the important ingredients for a few hours.
The mix is then dried overnight,sieved and put through a tableting machine.

Lozenges like cachous are manufactured differently and contain little or no starch.

Worked for May & Baker.

[Joshua Rogan]

You asked a serious question. I'm not sure that the suggestion I have can be taken seriously but, I have seen posted that Spooner was the only person to be close to Stride prior to the arrival Johnston who made no mention of grapes. The suggestion made by the poster, FWIW, was that the grapes may have fallen from Stride's hand when Spooner was examining her and he picked them up and ate them.

Hi George,
both Louis D and Isaac K stated that they saw the grapes when the doctor examined Stride's body;

Daily News 1 Oct
Louis: "Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other"

Isaac: "While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left."

My question is; who eats grapes and cachous at the same time? Aside from the sheer impracticability of trying to peel a grape while both hands are already engaged in holding items, I'd imagine that the two flavours would not be at all complimentary.

[Observer]

My question is; who eats grapes and cachous at the same time? Aside from the sheer impracticability of trying to peel a grape while both hands are already engaged in holding items, I'd imagine that the two flavours would not be at all complimentary.

Indeed, this has been mentioned in the past. Also, the notion that Stride would be able to perform those two tasks in near darkness is beyond believable.

If Stride, by some remarkable circumstances did indeed manage the above, and Packer did sell those grapes to Stride and her partner, then in my opinion, it was not JTR who accompanied Stride as they stood at the front of Packer's "shop" that night. It's not his style. I doubt he'd risk being seen in full view by Packer. Let's not forget that Packer also heard his voice.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

You asked a serious question. I'm not sure that the suggestion I have can be taken seriously but, I have seen posted that Spooner was the only person to be close to Stride prior to the arrival Johnston who made no mention of grapes. The suggestion made by the poster, FWIW, was that the grapes may have fallen from Stride's hand when Spooner was examining her and he picked them up and ate them.

Cheers, George

Hi George
Thanks-I have never seen that suggestion about Spooner, but I suppose it's along similar lines to me asking of the pony could have eaten them!
Debs

[caz]

Hi Debs, Interesting stuff.

That’s right, If Liz did have cashews or grapes she doesn’t appear to have consumed any of them if the post mortem report on stomach contents are accurate.

“The stomach was large and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder”

Edit: incase it’s of interest…

Cheese & potatoes digestion time 60-90 minutes.
Grapes 30 minutes
Cashews 120 minutes

Cashews are very different from cachous, Yabs.

Like comparing pistachios with parma violets.

Love,

Caz
X

[Debra A]

Many tablets have a Clag like base which is made in a bucket from starch and boiling hot water.
That is then tipped into a mixing machine with the important ingredients for a few hours.
The mix is then dried overnight,sieved and put through a tableting machine.

Lozenges like cachous are manufactured differently and contain little or no starch.

Worked for May & Baker.

Thanks DJA. You are probably right. I thought I recalled seeing some recipes that called for 'confectioner's starch' as a sort of powder coating but don't remember exactly where I read that.

[mpriestnall]

Like so much in this area of study "apparently" is often an attempt to sidestep the actual facts without being proven wrong absolutely. Apparently...according to many witnesses...there were in fact grapes there.

Michael, look into my eyes, not round the eyes, there were no grapes!

Ok, your'e back in the room!

[mpriestnall]

Ok, everyone, look into my eyes, not round the eyes, Stride was not a victim of Jack!

Ok, your'e back in the room!

[GBinOz]

Hi George,
both Louis D and Isaac K stated that they saw the grapes when the doctor examined Stride's body;

Daily News 1 Oct
Louis: "Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other"

Isaac: "While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left."

My question is; who eats grapes and cachous at the same time? Aside from the sheer impracticability of trying to peel a grape while both hands are already engaged in holding items, I'd imagine that the two flavours would not be at all complimentary.

Two witnesses state they saw grapes in Stride's hand when the doctor examined her and the doctor says he saw no grapes.

My question is: how do we assess testimony that is invariably contested and evidence that is hidden by authorities to protect who knows who? Are we on a fool's errand?

Cheers, George

[Joshua Rogan]

Two witnesses state they saw grapes in Stride's hand when the doctor examined her and the doctor says he saw no grapes.

My question is: how do we assess testimony that is invariably contested and evidence that is hidden by authorities to protect who knows who? Are we on a fool's errand?

Three witnesses, including Fanny. But Louis didn't mention any grapes at the inquest. Are you suggesting that the police convinced him to keep quiet about them?