Eva Harstein

[GBinOz]

Three witnesses, including Fanny. But Louis didn't mention any grapes at the inquest. Are you suggesting that the police convinced him to keep quiet about them?

Hi Joshua,

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that it is frustrating that there are so many contradictory statements, even from the same people contradicting themselves. There must have been some contraversy at the time as the Coroner at the inquest specifically asked both doctors about grapes.

Cheers, George

[mpriestnall]

I raise you 4 witnesses! That's the number (or 5?) that I remember quoted by Bruce Robinson in his book "They All Love Jack".

Don't have the book with me right now, but will check, and post his list of witnesses etc here later.

Working from memory, just to give me some wriggle room!

[Joshua Rogan]

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that it is frustrating that there are so many contradictory statements, even from the same people contradicting themselves. There must have been some contraversy at the time as the Coroner at the inquest specifically asked both doctors about grapes.

The doctors were only asked about grapes when they were recalled to the inquest, presumably as a result of Packer's interview being published on the 4th. Their primary evidence was given before this and they made no mention of grapes, only clots of blood on her right hand. Before this, Diemschutz had also made no mention of grapes at the ibquest, despite doing so in a press interview earlier. It does seem a pity that he wasn't also recalled and likewise asked about them.

[Joshua Rogan]

I raise you 4 witnesses! That's the number (or 5?) that I remember quoted by Bruce Robinson in his book "They All Love Jack".

Don't have the book with me right now, but will check, and post his list of witnesses etc here later.

Working from memory, just to give me some wriggle room!

I can't recall any other witnesses mentioning Stride holding grapes, other than Louis, Isaac and Fanny, but I'm happy to know more if you can find any. There's also Packer who said he sold her grapes, of course, but they were in a bag at the time. Plus the two detectives who said they found the grape stalk in the drain, and the two witnesses Eva and her sister who apparently saw the stalk on the ground after the body had been removed.
Any more?

[mpriestnall]

I can't recall any other witnesses mentioning Stride holding grapes, other than Louis, Isaac and Fanny, but I'm happy to know more if you can find any. There's also Packer who said he sold her grapes, of course, but they were in a bag at the time. Plus the two detectives who said they found the grape stalk in the drain, and the two witnesses Eva and her sister who apparently saw the stalk on the ground after the body had been removed.
Any more?

I'll take a look and come back tomorrow.

BTW, I just come across a post from Simon Wood's from 2008(!!!). Relates to Packer, so I thought you and others might find it interesting, as I do.

Here you go:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip.../1051-veracity.

It's on my to do list to compare the mentioned Swanson report and the unsigned Packer statement that appears to be taken
by A.C.B. at SY.

[GBinOz]

I'll take a look and come back tomorrow.

BTW, I just come across a post from Simon Wood's from 2008(!!!). Relates to Packer, so I thought you and others might find it interesting, as I do.

Here you go:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip.../1051-veracity.

It's on my to do list to compare the mentioned Swanson report and the unsigned Packer statement that appears to be taken
by A.C.B. at SY.

Simon Wood's description of Swanson is interesting: "a desk jockey and, as such, little more than official blotting paper—absorbed whatever he was told". I've also seen McNaughten describes as "just an ex-tea merchant". The old boy network for the ruling class?

Cheers, George

[mpriestnall]

Simon Wood's description of Swanson is interesting: "a desk jockey and, as such, little more than official blotting paper—absorbed whatever he was told". I've also seen McNaughten describes as "just an ex-tea merchant". The old boy network for the ruling class?

Cheers, George

The blotting paper remark is a good one. What was Bruce Robinson's name for Swanson? "Swifty Nib" or something? Didn't realize writing materials were so useful for insults!

[Ms Diddles]

The blotting paper remark is a good one. What was Bruce Robinson's name for Swanson? "Swifty Nib" or something? Didn't realize writing materials were so useful for insults!

IIRC it was "Shifty Nib"!

I remember it made me smile when reading that!

[mpriestnall]

IIRC it was "Shifty Nib"!

I remember it made me smile when reading that!

Your'e right Ms Diddles. Thanks.

"Swifty Nib" sounds more of a compliment than an insult!

[mpriestnall]

I can't recall any other witnesses mentioning Stride holding grapes, other than Louis, Isaac and Fanny, but I'm happy to know more if you can find any. There's also Packer who said he sold her grapes, of course, but they were in a bag at the time. Plus the two detectives who said they found the grape stalk in the drain, and the two witnesses Eva and her sister who apparently saw the stalk on the ground after the body had been removed.
Any more?

That'll be PC Lamb then.

Bruce Robinson's "They All Love Jack" deals with the grapes between pages 250 - 255

B.R. lists the following newspapers mentioning the grapes:
The Morning Advertiser, the Evening News, the Daily News, the Globe, the Telegraph and Times.

Walter Dew: Page 250: B.R. quotes Walter Dew 'In the little Berner Street Court, quite close to where the body was found,
detectives searching every inch of the ground came upon a number of grape skins and stones.'
Source: "I Caught Crippen" (p.141)

Police Constable Lamb: 'On arrival of that officer,' reported the Telegraph, 'he perceived that the woman was lying
on her left side, and was clutching some grapes in her right hand and sweetmeats in her left.'
Source: Daily Telegraph, Monday, 1 October 1888

Isaac Kosebrodski: 'While the doctor was examining the body,' recalled Kosebrodsky, 'I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and sweets in her left.'
Source: Evening News, 1 October 1888

Fanny Mortimer: 'The woman appeared to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes
and some sweets.'
Source: Evening News, 1 October 1888

Louis Diemschutz: ...'her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other.'
Source: Evening News, 1 October 1888 (https://wiki.casebook.org/louis_diemschutz.html) and "They All Love Jack" page 253

Packer, like you said, and of course, the grape stalks seen by Mrs Rosefield and Miss Eva Hartstein as per the OP.

++

[etenguy]

Worked for May & Baker.

Hi DJA

I worked at May and Baker back in the 1980s in Dagenham. Its not a name I have heard for a long time, I think they were taken over by Rhone Poulenc in the 1980s also. It was a massive site, so even if we were both there at the same time we likely never crossed paths - but we might just have done.

[DJA]

This was in Oz,1970s.
Used to be security on the cocaine deliveries to hospitals,amongst other duties.

[Paddy Goose]

Many tablets have a Clag like base which is made in a bucket from starch and boiling hot water.
That is then tipped into a mixing machine with the important ingredients for a few hours.
The mix is then dried overnight,sieved and put through a tableting machine.

Lozenges like cachous are manufactured differently and contain little or no starch.

Worked for May & Baker.

Okay, thank you, then based on your experience and knowledge, which side of which countervailing argument concerning which item, grapes or cachous, do you lean toward, please? Or both.

Paddy

[DJA]

Both.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think there are a few interesting things brought up by the research.
The obvious one being the identification of the witness Eva Harstein as the daughter of Isaac and Kate Har(t)steinwho lived in Dutfield's Yard. There have been questions in the past about how Eva and her sister had such a good view of the crime scene in Dutfield's yard when it was closed off to the public and speculation that they may have lived in Dutfiled's Yard itself at 40 Berner Street and not the reported 14. The wedding certificate shows that Eva was certainly living with her family in Dutfield's Yard in 1890, of course, that doesn't necessarily mean the same applied in 1888 but it supports the possibility. It also shows that Eva actually existed, was a local and was not someone shipped in by Charles Grande to claim to have seen the grape stalk at the crime scene that Grande and Bachelor would later retrieve from the drains.

Could '40' have simply been misheard as '14'?

It's interesting how these errors creep in ...

DN: Abraham Heshburg, a young fellow, living at 28, Berner-street, said: Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter.

IT: In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway."

Each report seems to be drawing from the same source material, but the street number does not match. Is one of those numbers due to a transcription error?

If the sisters had been living at #40, presumably the reference to the grape stalk is more likely to have been true, in the sense that it was actually witnessed as claimed, but then the same must also hold for the flower petals ...

EN: Mrs. Rosenfield ... also stated that, after the removal of the body of the murdered woman she saw a few small petals of a white natural flower lying quite close to the spot where the body had rested.

Why white petals, and not red ...?

D-I Reid: She had an old black skirt and an old black jacket trimmed with fur. Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose.

Hi Caz
Thanks
I must admit, I've always been of the opposite opinion- that Packer fabricated his story in some way, especially as both his, and Eva Harstein and her sister's stories were connected in some way to Charles Grande. That Eva did exist and had legitimate access to the yard and perhaps even lived there in 1888 puts a slightly different slant on things perhaps. I still try to look at things with the idea that the grapes existed as well. Though there is still the problem, for me, of how the grapes spotted by Deimschitz and Kozebrodski became just a grape stalk? Do ponies eat grapes? That's not a joke question either!

Hi Debs,

You asked a serious question. I'm not sure that the suggestion I have can be taken seriously but, I have seen posted that Spooner was the only person to be close to Stride prior to the arrival Johnston who made no mention of grapes. The suggestion made by the poster, FWIW, was that the grapes may have fallen from Stride's hand when Spooner was examining her and he picked them up and ate them.

Cheers, George

Yeah, some poster's have a very active imagination ...

Other than Packer, only Spooner mentions the colour white when referring to the flower.
Prior to Spooner's arrival in the yard, Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz are adamant that they see grapes in Stride's right hand.
(Fanny Mortimer also mentions grapes in hand, but it's hard to tell if this is a first or second-hand account.)
After Spooner observes the victim close-up, there are no further observations of grapes.

Surely though, what I'm implying might have occurred must be false when considering that neither the white flower nor the grapes were found either on Stride, or elsewhere in the yard.
Yet Spooner could have scattered the flower petals, thrown the rest of the flower in the gutter, and hoped the petals went unnoticed and/or blew away.
However, doing similar with the grapes would not be an option - if the grapes were found they could easily be linked to their sale at Packer's shop, and therefore to the buyer (by his description).
So what did he do with the grapes? Simple; he ate them.

Although now I not so sure if it were Spooner, or one of his WVC associates.