Who Was Anderson’s Witness?

[Trevor Marriott]

What about the suggestion that the witness might have been Joseph Levy who thought he had seen his relation Jacob?

The ripper mystery is full of suggestions !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Harry D]

Those 2 ID’s do seem a waste of time Harry. It’s this lack of any mention of an ID that’s an issue that’s hard to find a reasonable explanation for.

Didn't one newspaper report that Lawende positively ID'd Grainger?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Didn't one newspaper report that Lawende positively ID'd Grainger?

This is from Sugden Harry, it’s about the witness that was used to identify Grainger.

“The Pall Mall Gazette, reporting their inquiries, says: ‘there is one person whom the police believe to have actually seen the Whitechapel murderer with a woman a few minutes before that woman’s dissected body was found in the street.”

So it can’t have been talking about Schwartz.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The ripper mystery is full of suggestions !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Certainly is Trevor. I’ve never disagreed that we should be cautious but I just doubt think that we should dismiss just because there are doubts or unanswered questioned.

[Harry D]

This is from Sugden Harry, it’s about the witness that was used to identify Grainger.

“The Pall Mall Gazette, reporting their inquiries, says: ‘there is one person whom the police believe to have actually seen the Whitechapel murderer with a woman a few minutes before that woman’s dissected body was found in the street.”

So it can’t have been talking about Schwartz.

Ah yes, that clipping actually goes on to say:

“...That person is stated to have identified Grainger as the man he then saw.”

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah yes, that clipping actually goes on to say:

“...That person is stated to have identified Grainger as the man he then saw.”

Don’t know why I missed that bit Harry.

[rjpalmer]

Do you think he might have been told to say that?

No. I don’t think it would be something the police would want to be part of the public record. An admission by Lawende that he couldn’t recognize the suspect again would complicate his value as a witness in any future criminal trial, and if he admitted that he had lied under oath for the benefit of the police it would have left his earlier statement thoroughly discredited. I think he was simply being honest. I don’t see how it could be otherwise.

[Darryl Kenyon]

No. I don’t think it would be something the police would want to be part of the public record. An admission by Lawende that he couldn’t recognize the suspect again would complicate his value as a witness in any future criminal trial, and if he admitted that he had lied under oath for the benefit of the police it would have left his earlier statement thoroughly discredited. I think he was simply being honest. I don’t see how it could be otherwise.

Hi RJ
My view of Lawende is that he did get a reasonable view of the killer, as in his inquest testimony and the coroners request to sequester some of the details indicate. The fact that he didn't come forward but was identified with the house to house enquires, and Smith said he could not be lead with any questions seems to suggest that the police found him trustworthy who gave a decent description but a reluctant witness who they had to coerce, [ Remember they were clutching at straws, with no definite clues etc] .
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Which then begs the question, if it was a City of London ID then why did Major Smith never talk of it? He was not afraid to wax lyrical about all manner of things in his later memoirs. Surely a positive ID of the murderer would be such a thing he would include to mention? Unless it happened in 1901 or later - after he retired.

In fact, he did state:
"There is no man living who knows as much of those murders as I do; and ... I must admit that, though within five minutes of the perpetrator one night, and with a very fair description of him besides, he completely beat me and every police officer in London; and I have no more idea now where he lived than I had twenty years ago..."

He had no clue who JtR was.

I wonder if there was some kind of conflict between Smith and Anderson regarding Kosminski ?
Watched by City police day and night , [ Sagar, Cox ? ] but put in an asylum while under their watch.
Anderson - If they had powers like the French police. Is he indicating that the City police could have done more to hold him, even if it meant bending the rules ? Perhaps
Would Smith want to admit in his Auto that they were responsible for the prime suspect ? He was liberal with the truth and Sagar, who Smith held in high regard seems to contradict him.
Regards Darryl

[Wickerman]

We simply do not have a description of Kosminski in 1888 so Schwartz cannot be dismissed on that point.
But I do favour Lawende because 1 - Swanson said that there was time for Liz to have been attacked by someone else in an internal memo. Thus casting some doubt that BS was the killer. 2 - The witness was likely to have been a City witness because he was watched by City police, thus probably being the killer of Kate [ a crime on their territory ]. If we argue it is because he lived in City police territory, then I doubt he would have been brought by Met police to the ID.
Regards Darryl

Hi Darryl.

We notice over the years much speculation has been made over this so-called City PC, most theorists suggest the error being made with the 'PC', that PC was an error for 'witness'.
I think the opposite, the error is with 'City', in my view it should have read Met. PC, it's a reference to PC Smith on the Berner St. beat.

[GBinOz]

From A-Z:

"It is easy to see how the failed attempt to identify Sadler as Jack the Ripper could have evolved into Anderson's identification. This is because a witness who had not seen Jack the Ripper (Duncan Campbell) identified Sadler as a man who sold him a clasp knife in a Sailor's Home, while a witness who had seen Jack the Ripper (Joseph Lawende) was also called in to identify Sadler, but failed to do so".

That possibility seems a little thin to me, but there it is.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

True George, but as it was claimed that in 1916 he was in good bodily health wouldn’t that preclude dramatic weight loss? Leaving his 1915 weight of less than 8 stone as likely to have been his natural weight? It’s not a given of course but I tend to agree with Sugden on this that it wa at least likely that Kosminski was slightly built. I mentioned him being of jockey stature in an early post but this is from the jockey Frankie Dettori:

"I am 5 ft 4 inches (1.63 m) and weigh 9 st 9 lb (61 kg) (135 lbs) but I have to sometimes go down to 8 st 6 lb (54 kg) (118 lbs).

So Dettori, at the time of the interview was 5’4” and 2 stone lighter than Kosminski.

Hi Herlock,

If Kos was of jockey stature, he wouldn't fit any of the witness statements. Wouldn't this diminish the likelihood of him being JtR, or even Schwart's BSM?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi Darryl.

We notice over the years much speculation has been made over this so-called City PC, most theorists suggest the error being made with the 'PC', that PC was an error for 'witness'.
I think the opposite, the error is with 'City', in my view it should have read Met. PC, it's a reference to PC Smith on the Berner St. beat.

Excellent deduction Jon. As I recall Smith's suspect description was close to that of Packer. There is a interesting article in the Daily Telegraph 6 Oct 1888:

"It is a remarkable circumstance - much more than an ordinary coincidence - that the description of the supposed murderer given by Packer was yesterday confirmed by another man who, without being aware of the fact, also chose from the sketches the one which had been already selected by Packer. Search for an individual answering to the description above detailed, but having a small moustache and wearing a black deerstalker felt hat, instead of a soft one, has been made by the police in Whitechapel ever since Saturday, Sept. 1, the day following the Buck's-row tragedy. Information was tendered at the King David's-lane Police Station, at about that time, by a dairyman who has a place of business in Little Turner-street, Commercial-road. It will be recollected that on Saturday, Sept. 1, a desperate assault was reported to have been committed near to the music-hall in Cambridge-heath-road, a man having seized a woman by the throat and dragged her down a court, where he was joined by a gang, one of whom laid a knife across the woman's throat, remarking "we will serve you as we did the others." The particulars of this affair were subsequently stated to be untrue; but the milkman has reason to suppose that the outrage was actually perpetrated, and he suspects that the murderer of Mary Ann Nicholls in Buck's-row had something to do with it. At any rate, upon that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire. He was in a hurry, and he asked for a pennyworth of milk, with which he was served, and he drank it down at a gulp. Asking permission to go into the yard or shed, he went there, but the dairyman caught a glimpse of something white, and, having suspicions, he rejoined the man in the shed, and was surprised to observe that he had covered up his trousers with a pair of white over-alls, such as engineers wear. The man had a staring look, and appeared greatly agitated. He made a movement forward, and the brim of his hard felt hat struck the dairyman, who is therefore sure of the kind that he was wearing. In a hurried manner the stranger took out of a black shiny bag, which was on the ground, a white jacket and rapidly put it on, completely hiding his cutaway black coat, remarking meanwhile, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it?" although the subject had not been previously mentioned. Without making a pause the suspicious person caught up his bag, which was still open, and rushed into the street, towards Shadwell, saying, "I think I've got a clue!" The matter was reported to the police, and although strict watch has been maintained for the reappearance of the man he has not been seen in the street since. He is said to have had a dark complexion, such as a seafaring man acquires. The style of collar that he was then wearing was of the turn-down pattern. He had no marked American accent, and his general appearance was that of a clerk or student whose beard had been allowed three days' growth. His hair was dark, and his eyes large and staring.".

Another sighting of Bitannia Man/BGB perhaps?

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

If Kos was of jockey stature, he wouldn't fit any of the witness statements. Wouldn't this diminish the likelihood of him being JtR, or even Schwart's BSM?

Cheers, George

I Just spotted my error

. So Dettori, at the time of the interview was 5’4” and 2 stone lighter than Kosminski.

Should have read…2 stone heavier of course.

It would make him unlikely to have BSM I’d have thought George but we can’t say for certain that BSM killed Stride or if he did kill her whether or not he was the ripper or not. We can’t be certain about Kosminski’s build but there’s a definite suggestion that he was slightly built and so possibly not very tall.

[Abby Normal]

What about the suggestion that the witness might have been Joseph Levy who thought he had seen his relation Jacob?

interesting herl. that would certainly explain why the witness was reluctant to testify against him.