Elizabeth Prater

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Tom,

What's your take on Elizabeth Prater's own words at the inquest?

Well, according to the apparently verbatim transcript of the inquest in the Telegraph, it's reported that Prater said "I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed". I know - that dratted Telegraph again! But this was in a separate edition of the paper, published three days after that of the 10th November placed her at first floor front.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to put a lot more stock in a signed legal statement made by the woman herself.

One might do well to ponder that the first page of official inquest record (as transcribed in the Sourcebook at least) states that Kelly's body was found in Room 1, Miller's-court, Shoreditch.

Just to observe that we need to be on our guard with the official documents as well.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

The November 10 Daily Telegraph report sounds fairly conclusive, yet later on the same day . . .

THE STAR—November 10 1888

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well, she told a Star reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which IS ALMOST OVER HERS.

She was about 23 years old. I have known her since July - since I came to lodge here. She was tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily. I saw her go out in the shell this afternoon, but the last time I saw her alive was at about nine o'clock on Thursday night. I stood down at the bottom of the entry, and she came down. We both stood talking a bit, thinking what we were going to do, and then she went one way and I went another. I went to see if I could see anybody." Mrs. Prater adds with frankness, "She had got her hat and jacket on, but I had not. I haven't got a hat or a jacket. We stood talking a bit about what we were going to do, and then I said, 'Good night, old dear,' and she said 'Good night, my pretty.' She always called me that. That," said Mrs. Prater, "was the last I saw of her." Then Mrs. Prater breaks down, and commences to sob violently. "I'm a woman myself," she says, "and I've got to sleep in that place to-night right over where it happened." Mrs. Prater saw the dead and mutilated body through the window of Kelly's room, which it is to be remembered was on the ground floor. The pump stands just by there, and Mrs. Prater took advantage of a journey for some water to peep through the window for which, when the door was broken open, the curtains were torn down. She says, "I could not bear to look at it only for a second, but I can NEVER FORGET THE SIGHT of it if I live to be a hundred."

The capitalizations are Star sub-heads.

I wish I knew the answer.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

What, Tom, is you personal take on the fact that Prater was reported to live "almost" over Kelly? And the article that has her living "over the shed" - why did that come about in your humble opinion?

What's your take on Elizabeth Prater's own words at the inquest? Sorry, but I'm gonna have to put a lot more stock in a signed legal statement made by the woman herself. Am I wrong for doing so, Fish?

You know, Tom, you are a funny guy, Iīll give you that. Itīs just that I canīt figure out which of the two funnies that apply from time to time.

You're asking if I'm funny ha ha or funny queer? Keep dreamin', Fish. I'm often the former, but never the latter. Sorry to disappoint.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

For those who have not gone through the much debated article from the Daily Telegraph of November 10, it should be pointed out that it mentions the first floor front room at two separate occasions, first establishing itīs presence and exact whereabouts, and thereafter speaking of Prater as being the one who lived in it. Taken together, the case for the number 20 room being the one over the shed and inhabited by Elizabeth Prater is further strengthened.

These are the excerpts:

“In this court there are six houses let out in tenements, chiefly to women, the rooms being numbered. On the right-hand side of the passage there are two doors. The first of these leads to the upper floors of the house in which Kelly was living. It has seven rooms, the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows.”

and

“Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window.”

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Chava asks:

"I'm interested to see in the drawings above that someone else might have lived right above Kelly"

Chava, Sam has already mentioned it, but here it is again from the Daily Telegraph of Nov 10:
"The walls are of thin match lining, which makes this circumstance the more unaccountable, and the couple in the room overhead had slept soundly without being awakened by scuffling in the room beneath them."

...and that seems to be the only mentioning of somebody else than Prater living in one of the rooms "over" Kellys.

The best!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"...more troubling than the abuse he's received must be the knowledge that Perry Mason, Fisherman, and AP Wolf are firmly in his corner..."

You know, Tom, Sam seems to be able to handle most things that come along quite charitably, so I have a suspicion that he will deal with this just as nicely.
For your information, Tom, it was not the benefits of not having to camp with you that made my mind up on this matter - it was the fact that Sam actually has not taken any beating at all, as all sound-minded posters will recognize. Nor should he.

What, Tom, is you personal take on the fact that Prater was reported to live "almost" over Kelly? And the article that has her living "over the shed" - why did that come about in your humble opinion? Why was not more made by the papers out of the fact that she lived EXACTLY above Kelly; if she did indeed do so? Surely, you must agree that a good deal of those newspapers would pounce at the possibility to lead the readers to believe that Prater slept exactly over the place where Britains most ínfamous murder took place?
Why is it that no paper uses descriptions like "precisely over" or "exactly over", instead of the more vague "just above"; it is not as if the papers would try to play down their interview subjectīs role, is it?

You know, Tom, you are a funny guy, Iīll give you that. Itīs just that I canīt figure out which of the two funnies that apply from time to time.

The best!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

The Flynn Conundrum

Even if some people think Sam Flynn has his head firmly stuck up his ass over this Prater business, I just want to say that I admire how he's handled himself while taking such a beating as he has on this thread. Even more troubling than the abuse he's received must be the knowledge that Perry Mason, Fisherman, and AP Wolf are firmly in his corner. I'd be inconsolable if I were him, so mucho props to Sam Flynn.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Hi

Richard is right, does it matter where Prater lived? The importance of Prater lies with what she saw and heard that morning.

Observer

[Chava]

I don't know if it adds anything either way if Prater lived right above Kelly or partially above Kelly. However I'm interested to see in the drawings above that someone else might have lived right above Kelly. If that's the case, they would surely have been interviewed at the same time Prater was, so Stewart, do you have anything about that? If you don't, I will continue to believe that Prater lived either mostly or entirely above Kelly!

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Elizabeth Praters actual written statement at least confirms that she left the court at 9am, and returned at 1am, which would then add credence to her account of meeting MJK at the court entrance, when she describes her as wearing a jacket, and HAT...
Yet at midnight Kellys clothing was described as being different?
Her police statement actual mentions 'she screamed two/three times, yet at the inquest that differed, was not 'Awaken ftom a nightmare' the description?
The argument 'Where was Praters room?' will proberly ramble on , but the main point is, she heard [ claimed] sounds, and she pointed them in the direction of the court.
Regards Richard.

[Fisherman]

Dan Norder writes:
"certainly the position supported by that many respected people doesn't deserve to be slagged off by one aggressive message board poster as if it were crazy talk"

Agreed. The reason somebody is respected in this field lies of course in the fact that he or she has proven him- or herself able. And as long as able researchers do not step into the trap of believing that their talents will somehow have a retroactive effect on the case, there is every reason to attach weight to their notions.

"Boy, we don't seem to be reading the same thread at all. I'd say most of the evidence shows the opposite."

We read the same thread, alright. But we donīt read it the same way. I have already given my view on why I think the traditional view of Praters room being situated directly above Kellys room needs to be seriously questioned, and I see no reason whatsoever to back away from it.
There is always an initial slowness in accepting that traditionally "established facts" may actually be wrong (ask Kopernikus ...), and combined with the fact that it challenges the views of people who had rather seen their views accepted unchallenged, it is not a strange thing. I am speaking generally here, and not referring to you specifically, since you have stated that you have no trouble with things like these.

The best!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

Thank you for those kind words. They do indeed describe myself, Stewart, Dan, Rob, and Philip, aka The Infallible Four.

Well, Tom - thatīs as interesting a combination of Freud and maths as we are ever going to see on the boards!

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

The Korean connection to noise from below or from the court: The Buddhist Temple 20 feet from my northernmost window, has recently purchased, stolen, or incarnated a couple of obnoxious dogs. I sleep with my windows open as it is hot here. I know where the noise is coming from. It is north of me and below me, as that is where the dogs are. The reality is, when I am awakened 6 or seven times a night by the dogs going wild at drunken Koreans passing by at all hours of the night, the sounds seem to come from all three open windows at once. If the wind is blowing from the west, the barking is louder on that side. Sometimes the noise comes across and not from below. Now I am an expert on this dog noise and am considering killing them in order that they might be reincarnated as crickets or something. This happens every single night without failure. Prater heard a noise once and she may have been drinking, yet her word is used to try and figure logistics? Not feasible.

Mike

Based on that last post from Mr Evans, it occurs to me that we may have an answer to what Elizabeth referred to as "the lodging house". If she gave her address as 27 Dorset, rather than it being a press error, she may well think of 26-27 as a lodging house.....both buildings. Her statement may refer to a light from 27 that is extinguished.

I think we all should calm down too...this is about where EP's room was, not who killed Mary...or who the Ripper was. Maybe save the venom for more important matters..cause this isnt one. The only value Liz has is with the light not seen from Marys room, and the cry of "oh-murder" she hears along with Sarah Lewis. And the only way she could have heard it "as from the court" is via an opening from the court to the upper floor.

Cheers.

[Dan Norder]

Is this how the boards work; no matter how much value and weight a suggestion carries, if one of the presented "respected" researchers does not agree, your suggestion is rendered useless?

No, and that's not even what I was suggesting. None of those people I named all agree on everything in this field with any of the other people on that list. And, you are right, even if they/we did it wouldn't mean they/we were right. But certainly the position supported by that many respected people doesn't deserve to be slagged off by one aggressive message board poster as if it were crazy talk just because two people he doesn't like (thanks to some conflict he had years back and doesn't seem to want to get over) happen to agree with it.

I would have thought that since most of the presented evidence on the thread points in the direction of Praters room NOT being directly over Kellys, one ought perhaps lend an ear to that fact.

Boy, we don't seem to be reading the same thread at all. I'd say most of the evidence shows the opposite. Certainly the most reliable evidence (police statements, inquest testimony, building plans) point that way, and that should take precedence over the less reliable evidence (a suspicious word in a single news article that might not even have interviewed the correct person and speculation about the meaning of other news articles).

Frankly I've not even said that Prater's room was directly above Kelly's, just that it seems to be what the preponderance of the evidence points at right now. If enough compelling new evidence contrary to what I thought on this topic (or any other for that matter) ever comes along, I'd accept it and lean the other way. Coming to firm conclusions depends on stronger evidence still, but, if some appears, then it's no skin off my teeth. I'm more a supporter of how to come to fair and reasonable conclusions than any specific conclusion.