Charles Cross (Lechmere)

[Herlock Sholmes]

How long would it have taken Lechmere to walk from the murder site to his workplace?

[rjpalmer]

How long would it have taken Lechmere to walk from the murder site to his workplace?

Roughly twenty-minutes, though if he knew he was running late he could always adjust his pace accordingly.

If you want to read all the nuts & bolts, check out Steve Blomer's posts here:

Bucks Row Project - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Roughly twenty-minutes, though if he knew he was running late he could always adjust his pace accordingly.

If you want to read all the nuts & bolts, check out Steve Blomer's posts here:

Bucks Row Project - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

Cheers Roger,

I couldn’t remember but was thinking 15-20 minutes. He was leaving it a bit late to commit a murder I’ve always thought? If he was interrupted by the sound of Paul approaching this suggests that he might have intended further mutilation? He’d also have been aware of police patrolling which might have required him to hide somewhere until one or two passed safely by. It would have had to have been a spur-of-the-moment murder I’d have thought? A killer that avoided capture tends to point to a level of awareness/cunning/control? I believe that Neil had previously passed at around 3.15 but it’s not likely that Lechmere would have loitered around from say 3.20 to 3.40 though so we still have a murder committed 30 minutes or less before being due at work twenty minutes away. Just seems unlikely to me.

[Columbo]

Have you read my posts? I’m arguing against the statement that Lechmere had an alibi for Chapman. Which would mean that either that there is evidence that he was somewhere else when she was killed, or it is so implausible that he could have been anywhere near Hanbury Street at the time that it is not even worth considering. I’m not trying to place him at Hanbury Street I’m arguing that he could have been there.

I use the horseflesh example because that trade has some resonance in the Lechmere family and was handled by Pickfords, but he could have carried just about anything to just about anywhere, including to locations near Hanbury Street that didn’t take very long to unload.

Whoops, my apologies. I misunderstood.

[Elamarna]

How long would it have taken Lechmere to walk from the murder site to his workplace?

depends on route he took, but leaving about 3.30 he could certainly arrive before 4..

25 minutes is a good average.

But if he walked at 5mph, he could do it in around 20minutes.

Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

depends on route he took, but leaving about 3.30 he could certainly arrive before 4..

25 minutes is a good average.

But if he walked at 5mph, he could do it in around 20minutes.

Steve

Cheers Steve

[rjpalmer]

depends on route he took, but leaving about 3.30 he could certainly arrive before 4..

25 minutes is a good average.

But if he walked at 5mph, he could do it in around 20minutes.

Steve

Thanks, Steve. But, if I understand you, this is the estimated time for Lechmere's entire commute from Doveton Street to Pickford's, no?

What Sherlock actually asked is what time it would have taken Lechmere to have continued his journey to work "from the murder site."

So wouldn't it have been less? Don't we have to knock off around 5-8 minutes? (7 minutes seems about right to me).

I think Herlock's question is highly relevant.

If we are going to accept the possibility that Lechmere may have lied, then his journey time from Doveton Street is largely irrelevant. As Christer likes to tell us, he could have left at 3 a.m or even earlier and simply been lying to the inquest.

But what Lechmere couldn't have lied about is the time he was independently seen by Paul standing in the middle of Buck's Row.

If this occurred at a time when Lechmere could have still reached Pickford's by 4 a.m., (and Paul's estimate the time at around 3:45) then Lechmere's presence in the street is not only entirely natural, but the time at which he was seen standing there was also entirely natural---he was seen at around the same time he would have been there had he been innocently walking to work.

[rjpalmer]

It would have had to have been a spur-of-the-moment murder I’d have thought?

When I asked Christer about this conundrum, I was told that this was a crime of opportunity (or, as you say, a 'spur of the moment murder') and Polly Nichols was already standing in Buck's Row, having just serviced a client, and this is why the crime occurred when it did, and where it did. (Most of us imagine the Ripper being led into a backstreet or back court by his victims, as per 'normal' street prostitution. The obvious choice in Polly's case would have been her picking up a client in the Whitechapel Road).

I thought Holmgen's theory on this point was nothing short of astonishing, considering this other man would obviously be a better suspect than a random carman who had a reason for passing through that street at that time. And considering the vagaries of blood 'oozing,' then this client is the man we should be looking for.

Which is precisely what the police concluded 130 odd years ago.

[The Baron]

I thought Holmgen's theory on this point was nothing short of astonishing, considering this other man would obviously be a better suspect than a random carman who had a reason for passing through that street at that time. And considering the vagaries of blood 'oozing,' then this client is the man we should be looking for.

Which is precisely what the police concluded 130 odd years ago.

Exactly Roger.

But for some spiritual esoterical reasons, they want to take the carman road. They don't believe in a phantom killer, but thy believe happily in a the phantom client.



The Baron

[Elamarna]

Thanks, Steve. But, if I understand you, this is the estimated time for Lechmere's entire commute from Doveton Street to Pickford's, no?

What Sherlock actually asked is what time it would have taken Lechmere to have continued his journey to work "from the murder site."

So wouldn't it have been less? Don't we have to knock off around 5-8 minutes? (7 minutes seems about right to me).

I think Herlock's question is highly relevant.

If we are going to accept the possibility that Lechmere may have lied, then his journey time from Doveton Street is largely irrelevant. As Christer likes to tell us, he could have left at 3 a.m or even earlier and simply been lying to the inquest.

But what Lechmere couldn't have lied about is the time he was independently seen by Paul standing in the middle of Buck's Row.

If this occurred at a time when Lechmere could have still reached Pickford's by 4 a.m., (and Paul's estimate the time at around 3:45) then Lechmere's presence in the street is not only entirely natural, but the time at which he was seen standing there was also entirely natural---he was seen at around the same time he would have been there had he simply been innocently walking to wogrk.

i misread the original, sorry.
Yes so let me correct, shortest routes only this time

At 3.5mph it's between 19 and 22 minutes from Browns yard to Eldon street entrance at Pickfords

At 5mph it's between a shade under 14 - about 15 minutes

David Orsam said he managed it via Hanbury Street in 13 minutes 30 seconds

Sorry for that.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Roughly twenty-minutes, though if he knew he was running late he could always adjust his pace accordingly.

If you want to read all the nuts & bolts, check out Steve Blomer's posts here:

Bucks Row Project - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

The same data should be here on Casebook, in scene of crimes.

However, I believe Some of the figures were corrected by me when the book was published. Won't be a great deal of difference I suspect.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

Thanks, Steve. But, if I understand you, this is the estimated time for Lechmere's entire commute from Doveton Street to Pickford's, no?

What Sherlock actually asked is what time it would have taken Lechmere to have continued his journey to work "from the murder site."

So wouldn't it have been less? Don't we have to knock off around 5-8 minutes? (7 minutes seems about right to me).

I think Herlock's question is highly relevant.

If we are going to accept the possibility that Lechmere may have lied, then his journey time from Doveton Street is largely irrelevant. As Christer likes to tell us, he could have left at 3 a.m or even earlier and simply been lying to the inquest.

But what Lechmere couldn't have lied about is the time he was independently seen by Paul standing in the middle of Buck's Row.

If this occurred at a time when Lechmere could have still reached Pickford's by 4 a.m., (and Paul's estimate the time at around 3:45) then Lechmere's presence in the street is not only entirely natural, but the time at which he was seen standing there was also entirely natural---he was seen at around the same time he would have been there had he been innocently walking to work.

not if he left home.at 3:20 or 3:30. or earlier.

[Columbo]

When I asked Christer about this conundrum, I was told that this was a crime of opportunity (or, as you say, a 'spur of the moment murder') and Polly Nichols was already standing in Buck's Row, having just serviced a client, and this is why the crime occurred when it did, and where it did. (Most of us imagine the Ripper being led into a backstreet or back court by his victims, as per 'normal' street prostitution. The obvious choice in Polly's case would have been her picking up a client in the Whitechapel Road).

I thought Holmgen's theory on this point was nothing short of astonishing, considering this other man would obviously be a better suspect than a random carman who had a reason for passing through that street at that time. And considering the vagaries of blood 'oozing,' then this client is the man we should be looking for.

Which is precisely what the police concluded 130 odd years ago.

I don't recall if they found any money on Nichols?

[drstrange169]

Strangely, there is no record of any possessions being found about her person.

[Columbo]

The same data should be here on Casebook, in scene of crimes.

However, I believe Some of the figures were corrected by me when the book was published. Won't be a great deal of difference I suspect.

Steve

Excellent work.