Charles Cross (Lechmere)

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary,

You're probably already aware of it, but there's an interesting court case in the ELO describing John Barber supposedly selling horse flesh that was then used for human consumption by Londoners. This was at a knacker's yard in Marshgate-Lane, West Ham.

It describes butchers going to the knacker's yard in their own wagons to pick up the flesh.

I suppose it is possible the knackers used Pickford's to deliver meat to butchers around London, but is there any direct evidence for it? As I say, the court case describes various butchers using their own wagons/carts to pick up the meat.

ELO 27 August 1887 page 5.

Not sure where to start here, RJ.

Pickfords would not have delivered knackers meat to butchers because it contravened the various knacker’s acts. The very definition of a knacker is someone not producing butcher’s meat. But they would - they did - deliver it to cats meat wholesalers. And, yes, there is evidence that they did so.


I’m not sure, though, what the relevance of the John Barber case (which you can find on the JTRForums HB thread) has to do with deliveries from Broad Street. Pickfords, and later Carter Patterson, were the only carriers, apart from the LNWR themselves, who handled goods from the station.

[Abby Normal]

Curiously I wonder if either actually tried to wake Polly by giving her a gentle pat on the face, or talking to her? I know it's not mentioned but it seems the natural thing to do to a unconscious person.

good question columbo. yes it does seem like the natural thing to do, same as trying to sit someone up, to see if theyll come round.

[MrBarnett]

"But now for the 'meat,' which, cut into such joints as the trade require, has been boiling in the coppers and is now done to a turn, with just the central tint of redness and rawness that suits the harmless, necessary cat, while the 'tripe' is doing white in another copper to suit the palate of the less fastidious dog."

And that cat's meat would be shipped in some sort of packaging.

Harrison Barber also shipped their cat's meat to their own depots.

"Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators, used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

Fiver,

Congratulations on having managed post 1 on the JTR Forums HB thread. Keep going well into the 900s and you may well end up knowing something about the subject.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

I know enough to know how slaughterhouses work. they don't receive shipments of fresh, bleeding meat. They turn live horses into meat, bones. hooves, hair, and hides.



Thanks for the link. Did you miss that it starts with the source I quote?

And did you read the nearly 1000 posts that followed?I’m guessing not.

Do you know the difference between knackers and slaughterhouses? Again, I’m guessing not, or you would have known that knackers didn’t only process live animals.

[rjpalmer]

More horseflesh (cats meat) was consumed in London than Harrison, Barber could produce. Vast quantities of provincial horseflesh was imported to fill the gap. Harrison, Barber imported some of it and had a wholesale outlet in Coventry Street, Bethnal Green and there were other wholesalers who sold horseflesh that had been produced outside of the London Metropolitan area where HB had the monopoly on production.

Cats were said to prefer their meat fresh and a little on the pink side. If CAL got involved in the carrying of such meat, he might well have ended up with a few smears on his apron.

Hi Gary,

You're probably already aware of it, but there's an interesting court case in the ELO describing John Barber supposedly selling horse flesh that was then used for human consumption by Londoners. This was at a knacker's yard in Marshgate-Lane, West Ham.

It describes butchers going to the knacker's yard in their own wagons to pick up the flesh.

I suppose it is possible the knackers used Pickford's to deliver meat to butchers around London, but is there any direct evidence for it? As I say, the court case describes various butchers using their own wagons/carts to pick up the meat.

ELO 27 August 1887 page 5.

[Columbo]

"But now for the 'meat,' which, cut into such joints as the trade require, has been boiling in the coppers and is now done to a turn, with just the central tint of redness and rawness that suits the harmless, necessary cat, while the 'tripe' is doing white in another copper to suit the palate of the less fastidious dog."

And that cat's meat would be shipped in some sort of packaging.

Harrison Barber also shipped their cat's meat to their own depots.

"Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators, used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

I would think this would put a hole in the Cross killing Chapman theory, but only if he was delivering meat. he would need to be there before 5a I would think.

[Fiver]

Cats were said to prefer their meat fresh and a little on the pink side. If CAL got involved in the carrying of such meat, he might well have ended up with a few smears on his apron.

"But now for the 'meat,' which, cut into such joints as the trade require, has been boiling in the coppers and is now done to a turn, with just the central tint of redness and rawness that suits the harmless, necessary cat, while the 'tripe' is doing white in another copper to suit the palate of the less fastidious dog."

And that cat's meat would be shipped in some sort of packaging.

Harrison Barber also shipped their cat's meat to their own depots.

"Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators, used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

[Fiver]

You don't seem to know very much about the London horseflesh trade.

I know enough to know how slaughterhouses work. they don't receive shipments of fresh, bleeding meat. They turn live horses into meat, bones. hooves, hair, and hides.

You will find a lot more info here: https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...e-slaughterers than in the source you've quoted.

Thanks for the link. Did you miss that it starts with the source I quote?

[barnflatwyngarde]

David Orsam's "Breaking Point" is a good balanced and unbiased overall take on Fisherman's book, I am sure most of us have already read it, if not here is the link:

https://www.orsam.co.uk/breakingpoint.htm

The Baron

Yeah, I've always thought that David Orsam's article on "Cutting Point", was a good and fair analysis of Christer's book.

[MrBarnett]

You don’t seem to know very much about the London horseflesh trade.

You will find a lot more info here: https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...e-slaughterers than in the source you’ve quoted.

More horseflesh (cats meat) was consumed in London than Harrison, Barber could produce. Vast quantities of provincial horseflesh was imported to fill the gap. Harrison, Barber imported some of it and had a wholesale outlet in Coventry Street, Bethnal Green and there were other wholesalers who sold horseflesh that had been produced outside of the London Metropolitan area where HB had the monopoly on production.

Cats were said to prefer their meat fresh and a little on the pink side. If CAL got involved in the carrying of such meat, he might well have ended up with a few smears on his apron.

[MrBarnett]

You do understand that Harrison, Barber was a chain of horse slaughterhouses? You do understand what slaughterhouses do? It's not to receive shipments of fresh, bleeding meat. It's turn live horses into meat, bones. hooves, hair, and hides. If Charles Lechmere ever carried horseflesh he'd be picking it up from Harrison, Barber slaughterhouses, not delivering it. And horse fkesh was not shipped raw, it was cooked by Harrison Barber.

You don’t seem to know very much about the London horseflesh trade.

You will find a lot more info here: https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...e-slaughterers than in the source you’ve quoted.

[Columbo]

no. you did have a problem with that. which is why you asked how you do it by sitting someone up. you know just as quick aside.

Curiously I wonder if either actually tried to wake Polly by giving her a gentle pat on the face, or talking to her? I know it's not mentioned but it seems the natural thing to do to a unconscious person.

[Fiver]

Picture the scene: Lechmere rocks up at Harrison, Barber's railway arch with a van load of fresh horse flesh and HB's men look askance at him because he has what appears to be a blood smear on his apron. He in turn has his suspicions about them because they have incriminating-looking stains on their clothes.

You do understand that Harrison, Barber was a chain of horse slaughterhouses? You do understand what slaughterhouses do? It's not to receive shipments of fresh, bleeding meat. It's turn live horses into meat, bones. hooves, hair, and hides. If Charles Lechmere ever carried horseflesh he'd be picking it up from Harrison, Barber slaughterhouses, not delivering it. And horse fkesh was not shipped raw, it was cooked by Harrison Barber.

[Fiver]

You've seen it mentioned (possibly by me on numerous occasions) that Pickfords employed van guards to protect valuable and easily portable goods and have assumed they did so on every journey of every cart in their fleet, irrespective of what the load was?

I've only see you mention vanguards in response to posts by me, so don't go patting yourself on the back. I didn't find out about vanguards from anyone on this site. The 1891 Census record for Charles Lechmere shows his son was working as a vanguard. Old Bailey records involving Pickfords also frequently mention van guards or van boys and shows they were helpful in detecting theft. Old Bailey records also show that criminals were not targeting valuable goods.

[The Baron]

David Orsam's "Breaking Point" is a good balanced and unbiased overall take on Fisherman's book, I am sure most of us have already read it, if not here is the link:

https://www.orsam.co.uk/breakingpoint.htm

The Baron