Lizzie Prater - intended victim?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Im always prepared to do so Robert, although I like to have my point of view accepted I still respect the view of others like yourself.

Cheers Mate

[GregBaron]

Over the top...

Hi Greg.

Have you noticed the headboard in the photo, that it looks low enough that a man could reach over it?
The bed is up against the side partition certainly, but the headboard is some distance away from the passage wall. Some have theorized that the washstand stood behind the headboard in the corner.
Regardless, there appears to be sufficient space that a man could, at the very least, have cut her throat from this position making it unnecessary for him to climb on top of her to do that.

Once this is done, he steps around to the side of the bed and drags her body towards him to start the mutilations.
Just another way of looking at it..

Regards, Jon S.

An interesting idea Wickerman and certainly possible. This seems however like it would give less leverage and if MJK was awakened, she might be able to get up off the bed and put up a fight or even get out of the room. I would think the logistics of body to body contact would provide greater chance of a quick kill and no chance of escape. Just thinking aloud here, it seems contrived and unnecessary for him to attack over the headboard a la Dracula…


Greg

[Bridewell]

He must also have taken care not to brush against the blood splashes on the partition, as the police and doctors would presumably have noticed if these had been smeared out.

That would only be an issue if the bed was moved after the throat was cut, but I introduced the 'bed moved' notion simply as a discussion point.

[Cogidubnus]

Check the fimbriation of your ordinaries

Hi Colin

I have to say I'm veering towards Michael here, though I do have some reservations.

By the way I love your new signature...but do trust the jackstaff's to the left, otherwise you're signifying distress!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

An interesting idea Wickerman and certainly possible. This seems however like it would give less leverage and if MJK was awakened, she might be able to get up off the bed and put up a fight or even get out of the room. I would think the logistics of body to body contact would provide greater chance of a quick kill and no chance of escape. Just thinking aloud here, it seems contrived and unnecessary for him to attack over the headboard a la Dracula…


Greg

Ok, the image I had (for what its worth) was that she let him in or brought him in with her.
Kelly undresses while the man goes to the washbasin. While Kelly is sat on the bed fixing her chemise with her back to him he flips a cord over her head and pulls tight, garotting her. When she collapsed backwards onto the pillow he pulls a knife and sliced her throat.

Advantages being, he is behind her when the attack commenced so no chance of her hitting, scratching or kicking him. Also, the image of a killer crouched over her on the bed is somewhat ungainly, and still possible to get blood on himself when he sliced her throat, not so if he is standing behind the headboard - less likely, and he would be in more of a controlled stance.

Just tossing possibilities around...

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Ok, the image I had (for what its worth) was that she let him in or brought him in with her.
Kelly undresses while the man goes to the washbasin. While Kelly is sat on the bed fixing her chemise with her back to him he flips a cord over her head and pulls tight, garotting her. When she collapsed backwards onto the pillow he pulls a knife and sliced her throat.


Regards, Jon S.

Hi, Jon,
interesting.

But what about the defensive wounds on her hands? When would that have happened?

curious

[Wickerman]

Hi, Jon,
interesting.

But what about the defensive wounds on her hands? When would that have happened?

curious

Hi Curious.

I'm just as fascinated as anyone might be that the cut on the thumb was a defensive wound but, if she had the where withall to grab his knife then why did she not holler sufficiently loud enough to waken the dead?

Defensive actions suggest a time factor, if she had time to defend herself she also had time to yell, scream and raise hell.

Somehow, "oh murder" doesn't quite cut it for a defensive scream.

Or did the killer just cut her thumb by accident?, there appears to be overcuts across her forearm, maybe the thumb cut is just another example?

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Hi Curious.

I'm just as fascinated as anyone might be that the cut on the thumb was a defensive wound but, if she had the where withall to grab his knife then why did she not holler sufficiently loud enough to waken the dead?

Defensive actions suggest a time factor, if she had time to defend herself she also had time to yell, scream and raise hell.

Somehow, "oh murder" doesn't quite cut it for a defensive scream.

Or did the killer just cut her thumb by accident?, there appears to be overcuts across her forearm, maybe the thumb cut is just another example?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi, Jon,
I can the hand injuries as perhaps extra or extended slices.

The cry of "Oh murder" doesn't make sense to me as something MJK would have said when confronted by the realization she was facing a killer.

A bloodcurdling scream, maybe.

Since we have reports that lead us to believe she was drunk at the time, and perhaps sleeping, I wonder that even if she did wake up and had the time to think, she might have been silent trying to process what was happening -- even long enough for her killer to shut her up permanently.

When I'm surprised by something, I tend to take a few seconds "to get the lay of the land" and a few seconds could have been the difference between silence and a scream and actually life and death in her situation.

Too early and not enough coffee to think straight.

Long day today. Will get back later.

curious

[Wickerman]

The cry of "Oh murder" doesn't make sense to me as something MJK would have said when confronted by the realization she was facing a killer.

A bloodcurdling scream, maybe.

Hi Curious.

Well thats my take too, but if we look at the comments Prater made on that point its not consistent.

".....and just then I heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice."

Then she says:

"...I heard a cry of oh! Murder! .......... – I did not hear it a second time. I heard nothing else whatever "

Why did she change her story?

I wonder if Prater felt obliged to explain to the Coroner why, if hearing several screams, she would still think it unnecessary to investigate?
(Fear?)
Maybe it was guilt? - so she revised her story? - they were afterall friends.

It is strange, but we maybe wrong to simply accept the second version when the first version makes more sense, and, is more consistent with the defensive wounds on Kelly (assuming thats what they were).

Regards, Jon S.
(hey we've actually come back to Prater, imagine that! )

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, the image I had (for what its worth) was that she let him in or brought him in with her.
Kelly undresses while the man goes to the washbasin. While Kelly is sat on the bed fixing her chemise with her back to him he flips a cord over her head and pulls tight, garotting her. When she collapsed backwards onto the pillow he pulls a knife and sliced her throat.

Jon,

Here are the problems with the above;

-How does she sit on the bed with her back to him?
-There is no evidence that she was choked first
-She is attacked while on the extreme right-hand side of the bed, the blood evidence on the wall confirms that
-The wash basin is under her bed.

Your premise is that she was entertaining a client, youve said as much on other threads, and that is why you are missing a key ingredient here. How does a man standing in a 10 x 10 foot room sneak up on someone?

They have to be facing away, or at least semi sleeping.

Neither position fits a client encounter.

Cheers Jon

[GregBaron]

Stranger in the night...

Jon,

Here are the problems with the above;

-How does she sit on the bed with her back to him?
-There is no evidence that she was choked first
-She is attacked while on the extreme right-hand side of the bed, the blood evidence on the wall confirms that
-The wash basin is under her bed.

Your premise is that she was entertaining a client, youve said as much on other threads, and that is why you are missing a key ingredient here. How does a man standing in a 10 x 10 foot room sneak up on someone?

They have to be facing away, or at least semi sleeping.

Neither position fits a client encounter.

Cheers Jon

I agree with you Michael. I don't think any of the C5 were garrotted as I believe it would show in the victim's fingers.

One question I have for you all is...How dark would it have been if a stranger snuck into the room in the middle of the night? I believe there was a gaslamp across the way but I'm wondering if a stranger could even locate the bed or victim?

Sorry we're bumping Lizzie Prater again...


Greg

[Michael W Richards]

One question I have for you all is...How dark would it have been if a stranger snuck into the room in the middle of the night? I believe there was a gaslamp across the way but I'm wondering if a stranger could even locate the bed or victim?

Sorry we're bumping Lizzie Prater again...


Greg

Hi Greg,

To answer the above...had the killer entered uninvited through the door, light would have spilled in because of the gaslamp across the courtyard from Marys door. The windows were found locked, so its probable Mary did that, not the killer.

So...you have the door as the killer ingress point. If he manages to open the door on his own, because it was unlocked, then he still has to close it again, and get to Mary on the bed. Noise.

If he opens the door via the window breakage, then he knew the room.

To me its very difficult for those that would like this to be a random act or a fortuitous discovery. The evidence is contrary to it.

Cheers Greg

[Wickerman]

Jon,

Here are the problems with the above;

-How does she sit on the bed with her back to him?
-There is no evidence that she was choked first
-She is attacked while on the extreme right-hand side of the bed, the blood evidence on the wall confirms that
-The wash basin is under her bed.

Your premise is that she was entertaining a client, youve said as much on other threads, and that is why you are missing a key ingredient here. How does a man standing in a 10 x 10 foot room sneak up on someone?

They have to be facing away, or at least semi sleeping.

Neither position fits a client encounter.

Cheers Jon

Hi Michael.

I'm not sure why you can't envisage Kelly sitting on the bed, what else was there to sit on (not the chairs) assuming they are both preparing for sex? I could probably draw this but I didn't think it was necessary.

Her throat was cut so completely that it would destroy any evidence of a ligature, but ecchymosis (bruising) was noticeable, which is not normally associated with a clean knife wound. I'm aware this is not proof, but it is consistent with strangulation.

Given the bed was not that wide, "extreme right" is deceptive, her throat was cut while she was on her right side facing the partition, that is not to say she was in this position when the attack commenced.

Washbasin?, there are drawings of a vertical washstand in the room, I wasn't talking about that tub under her bed.

How does a man standing in a 10 x 10 foot room sneak up on someone?

He doesn't "sneak up", just like when Sutcliffe was walking and talking with Josephine Whitaker, to get her to turn her head away from him he asked her the time on the Town hall clock.
Trust me , it is not difficult to get someone to turn their head for a moment.

"Oh Mary, my hands are wet, could you just reach me my bag...."


All the best, Jon S.

[GregBaron]

Stalk and pounce...

Hi Greg,

To answer the above...had the killer entered uninvited through the door, light would have spilled in because of the gaslamp across the courtyard from Marys door. The windows were found locked, so its probable Mary did that, not the killer.

So...you have the door as the killer ingress point. If he manages to open the door on his own, because it was unlocked, then he still has to close it again, and get to Mary on the bed. Noise.

If he opens the door via the window breakage, then he knew the room.

To me its very difficult for those that would like this to be a random act or a fortuitous discovery. The evidence is contrary to it.

Cheers Greg

Thanks Michael, good stuff. The only thing I would like to add is that a stalker may have observed Mary previously and noticed the broken window entrance method. He may have then slipped in on the night in question and indeed drunken Mary was roused with her "Oh murder" exclamation just as the perp jumped on the bed and slit her throat. I see this as a possibility....

Stalking is a frequent strategy of modern serial killers....


Greg

[Bridewell]

Getting back to the subject of the thread:

Lizzie Prater - intended victim?

I would have thought that anyone who intended to kill Elizabeth Prater specifically, and to do so in her own room, would ensure that he knew exactly where she lived, and how to get there, before striking.