Lizzie Prater - intended victim?

[Robert]

Hi Michael

But why couldn't she have been on her back? Bit awkward, cutting the right side of her throat when she's lying on it.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Robert.

Yes, a number of questions do arise which throw a query on Macdonalds Inquest rather than the credibility of his witnesses. The other problem of course is that none of the records of the proceedings are complete, which includes the official document.
A number of replies by Lewis in the Official record are abbreviated. We obtain more lengthy responses in the press, plus thankfully, the Coroners questions which prompted the replies.

Agreed, Hutchinson does mention, but only in his press interview, that he passed the Whitechapel Church (Matfelon?) between 1:50-1:55 am.
From there its a minute or two around the corner and up Commercial St.

Sequence of events matters more than any estimated times.
What I mean by that is, if Hutchinson watched Kelly & 'A' just after 2:00am, but Lewis saw a man watching a couple at 2:30 am, then we will never reconcile the sequence because their estimated times are too far apart.

The correct times were not known because.....
- We don't know where Lewis was when she heard the clock (passing the church or, at the Keylers).
- We don't know if the Spital clock was correct.
- We don't know what time Hutch met Kelly & 'A'.
- We don't know if the Whitechapel Church clock was in syc. with the Spital clock.

Therefore, regardless of the estimated times, Hutchinson watched Kelly & 'A' walk up the court/passage sometime after two o'clock.
Sarah Lewis observed a man watching a couple pass up the passage around half past two.
Hutchinson also admits to walking up the passage and standing outside Kelly's door.
Lewis mentions seeing a man stand outside Kelly's door.

Too much attention is payed to aligning up the times when everyone concerned knows the times are estimates to begin with.
However, the sequences are not estimates, they are one-to-one contacts between people who were there.

Just as a side note.
Mrs McCarthy also had a comment to make.
Someone came into her shop that night, who was not a tenant, and mentioned seeing a funny looking man go up the court/passage.

Mrs McCarthy herself gives a slight clue as to a person who was seen in the court early on Friday morning, as one of her customers remarked to her – before the murder was known - “I saw such a funny man up the court this morning”. Mrs McCarthy says she has been so worried by the shocking affair that she cannot now remember the customer who thus spoke to her.

The customer could have been anybody, but equally it could have been Sarah Lewis. Lewis was not a tenant so McCarthy had no reason to remember her, so did Lewis step into McCarthy's shop before she arrived at the Keyler's?
Was this customer describing Hutchinson standing up the court (from the shop), but what would be "funny" about Mr. Wideawake?
Or, was it this well-dressed (funny-looking) Astrachan man with Kelly?

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon

Sarah Lewis deposed: I live at 24, Great Pearl-street, and am a laundress. I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock. When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court. I dozed in a chair at Mrs. Keyler's, and woke at about half- past three. I heard the clock strike.

Now, she arrived at the Court around 2.30. Hutchinson says he saw MJK and Mr A around 2, or just after. That's OK as far as it goes, but for Lewis to have seen MJK and Mr A, would mean that they still hadn't got inside Mary's room. This would mean that they'd been hanging around talking for close on half an hour. I had always taken "further on" to mean "further down Dorset St." Also she doesn't mention looking out of a window. She says she just dozed and awoke at 3.30.

If she saw the man and woman actually in the court, wouldn't she have been pressed to describe them? After all, she described the man who was waiting (the "Hutchinson" man).

Robert,

As you know Marys room was dark and silent at 1:30, and no-one sees her leave the room or courtyard. So, how is it that she is out of her room and seen loitering with someone at 2:30?

Prater was inside the archway after 1:20 and Mary didnt pass her on the way out, and she had been out on the street from 1 until approx 1:20. Mary would have had to walk past her to leave her room as it was found by Prater when she ascended the staircase. Dark and quiet.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Mrs McCarthy also had a comment to make.
Someone came into her shop that night, who was not a tenant, and mentioned seeing a funny looking man go up the court/passage.

Mrs McCarthy herself gives a slight clue as to a person who was seen in the court early on Friday morning, as one of her customers remarked to her – before the murder was known - “I saw such a funny man up the court this morning”. Mrs McCarthy says she has been so worried by the shocking affair that she cannot now remember the customer who thus spoke to her.

The customer could have been anybody, but equally it could have been Sarah Lewis. Lewis was not a tenant so McCarthy had no reason to remember her, so did Lewis step into McCarthy's shop before she arrived at the Keyler's?

Regards, Jon S.

If so, then both McCarthy and Lewis must have forgotten to mention it was her, not Prater.

If you allow Hutchinson to be what he is historically, someone whom the police determined wasnt truthful, you have fewer problems with any witness who saw Mary out of her room after 11:45pm Thursday.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

Interesting, but didn't Prater say that she spent a little time in the shop talking to McCarthy, and would it not, therefore, be possible for MJK to exit the passiageway unseen whilst both Prater and McCarthy were distracted? Especially if she turned left....

Just a thought

All the best

Dave

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Didn't Bowyer say that he'd seen a man who had strange eyes in the Court a day or two before?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

But why couldn't she have been on her back? Bit awkward, cutting the right side of her throat when she's lying on it.

A bit more awkward, sure, but if thats where she was lying, by her position it sounds like waiting for someone to get into the 2/3 of the bed she left free, then it allowed the killer a sneak attack from behind. Awkward, but far less struggle and noise. Which the evidence shows is lacking at this scene.

Whomever killed her had to know noise was a huge factor here.

Cheers Robert

[Cogidubnus]

This bloke with the dodgy eyes seems to be getting around a bit doesn't he?

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

Interesting, but didn't Prater say that she spent a little time in the shop talking to McCarthy, and would it not, therefore, be possible for MJK to exit the passiageway unseen whilst both Prater and McCarthy were distracted? Especially if she turned left....

Just a thought

All the best

Dave

The tuck shop window was likely a door that allowed the top half to be opened to serve customers, people didnt browse tuck shops like a modern variety store. So Prater was probably partially blocking that archway while standing with McCarthy.

Mary arrived with a flourish, according to Cox, then sang for more than an hour. She was hammered at the time. Rather than assuming she silently tiptoed past Prater and McCarthy, Im more comfortable not adding events into this mix that have zero provenance. Like Marys exit from that room that night.

Cheers Dave, all the best.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

But Abberline said he believed Hutchinson's story.

I don't know whether the police tried to test the story, say by asking Lewis to take a look at Hutchinson. Maybe they found a man's red handkerchief in the room?

We do know that Hutchinson wasn't an inveterate time waster. If he did insert himself into the investigation for non-forensic reasons, then he ejected himself from it fairly quickly. We do not hear from him again.

[Michael W Richards]

A bit more awkward, sure, but if thats where she was lying, by her position it sounds like waiting for someone to get into the 2/3 of the bed she left free, then it allowed the killer a sneak attack from behind. Awkward, but far less struggle and noise. Which the evidence shows is lacking at this scene.

Whomever killed her had to know noise was a huge factor here.

Cheers Robert

If the man was left handed, which it appears he was, it makes sense for him to start from behind the victim.


Cheers Robert

[Robert]

Hi Michael

I think he was right-handed, and he here cuts the opposite side of the throat from the side that he's used to. I don't think she had her back to him. I think she was shrinking into the far right corner, in an instinctive attempt to get away from him. I think there was a struggle, but it was brief. Her throat was cut and she was stabbed through the sheet which was placed over her face. She may have caught a hefty punch in the face to stun her.

[Suzi]

I think we're going around in circles here and getting nowhere-

[Suzi]

Exactly!!!!! lets go with Abberline 'eh

[Wickerman]

If so, then both McCarthy and Lewis must have forgotten to mention it was her, not Prater.

Yes, we do have Prater admitting to going into the shop, but at the time she did there was no suggestion of a "funny" man within the court, so its unlikely the customer was Prater. Besides, Mrs McCarthy is also unlikely to forget the name of her tenant Mrs Prater, the visitor was a customer, not a tenant she knew by name.

If you allow Hutchinson to be what he is historically, someone whom the police determined wasnt truthful, you have fewer problems with any witness who saw Mary out of her room after 11:45pm Thursday.

We have yet to see any suggestion that the police determined Hutchinson was being untruthful, this is an invention of modern readers.

Regards, Jon S.