Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing
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If Schwartz Lied ...
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If murder occurred (whether high profile or otherwise) somewhere near to where any of us lived how many of us would agree to lie about being on the spot when we weren’t? How many would be able to, just a few hours later, provide a reason for actually being there so that the police could easily check where we came from and at what time? They would also have been able to have checked the validity of the reason for our presence there. Then of course, as we weren’t actually there, how would feel about the very obvious possibility that someone might have come forward and said “well I was there and I never saw him?” And, that said, how enthusiastic would we be for such a lie when would know that it placed us at the scene of the murder without anyone to say “yes, I saw him there and he wasn’t physically involved in the incident.” Added to this how comfortable would the person that put you up to this lie feel? Knowing that under pressure from police questioning you might slip up or even just admit that you were coerced to lie.
Yet we keep being asked to accept this preposterous nonsense. And the only reason that this silliness has been put forward is because some of the timings don’t exactly match up. No matter how many times it’s shown that, by employing a margin for error, that there are no issues some still prefer to dive straight into cover up and conspiracy no matter how far-fetched, baseless and ridiculous, rather than accept the very obvious, the very plausible and the very grounded explanation that times shouldn’t be taken exactly. That we need to make allowances. Just as we need to make allowances for the various minor differences in press report. These differences are simply par for the course and we would be more surprised if they didn’t exist.
Faced with the two possibilities, a) unrealistic, unlikely, baseless, motiveless cover up (they happen all the time when people are murdered in the street of course) or, b) Schwartz simply saw an incident when there was no one else in the street, how can there even be any competition between the two? How much time do we waste in our lives listening to this kind of stuff. Enough is enough with this tired joke.
Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 03-21-2022, 07:29 PM.Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post...
Faced with the two possibilities, a) unrealistic, unlikely, baseless, motiveless cover up (they happen all the time when people are murdered in the street of course) or, b) Schwartz simply saw an incident when there was no one else in the street, how can there even be any competition between the two? How much time do we waste in our lives listening to this kind of stuff. Enough is enough with this tired joke.
Sadly for us, the information we have is only suggestive that Pipeman was identified and interviewed, and this is just another one of those times where the police knew more than we do, but we cannot be sure of what that "more" consisted of. But regardless, there was someone else in the street at the time and while we don't have it recorded what their version of the events were it is possible the police did. And if they did, it would have been recorded somewhere at that time. Uncovering that in some misplaced document would be a fantastic discovery. Sigh. If I'm going to be making wishes, I want a pony too.
- Jeff
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
George,
in #2821 I discussed two scenarios. One based roughly on Goldstein time (12:55), and the other with Goldstein replacing Schwartz at ~12:45, which is obviously not Goldstein time, or Schwartz time, or Mortimer time. It's just a scenario that attempts to make sense of the evidence. I did use police time, true, but on the other hand, Mortimer time was only mentioned to suggest that her timing fits the first scenario. So what unjustified syncing of times am I guilty of?
I recently theorized that Fanny may well have seen the assault described by Schwartz. This resulted in zero discussion. As anticipated. The same was true when I suggested that WVC patrolman may have been on Berner street in the lead-up to the murder, and may have included men whose names we know of, and/or the men described by Schwartz. This resulted in a long and interesting discussion. Not. As anticipated. The demand for any theories that step outside of "we know what happened on Berner street", is zero. Yourself being the exception. So perhaps just ask me some questions?
Rather, it is more likely you are exploring different lines of thought, which is certainly good practice, but it can be confusing for everyone else trying to make sense of your position in terms of the big picture.
By presenting a sequence of events, or a time line of the events, then it would go to great lengths to clarify your core position at this time - the framework on which the detailed events are hung so to speak. Obviously, we're all free to change our minds in the future so presenting your thoughts as they stand at this point in time does not mean you are forever beholden to stand fast to them.
- Jeff
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Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
I, too, would be interested in seeing you lay out a time line, with or without actual times (your preference) of how you envision the events occurring and how all the pieces fit together. It's often difficult to piece them together to reflect your "big picture" when the ideas are presented scattered over multiple threads. Particularly when there are times when things seem to be contradictory. For example, you point out above that you recently considered the idea that Fanny may have seen the assault referred to by Schwartz, and yet in the post immediately preceding that one you stated that the events Schwartz described simply never happened ("No one heard it, because it never happened. Simpler." is how you phrased it). But if it never happened, then Fanny could not have witnessed them, so it's hard to reconcile your thoughts because these examples suggest that you believe the events both did and did not happen when we look over those two different posts. Clearly that can't be the case, nor do I think you believe that.
Rather, it is more likely you are exploring different lines of thought, which is certainly good practice, but it can be confusing for everyone else trying to make sense of your position in terms of the big picture.
By presenting a sequence of events, or a time line of the events, then it would go to great lengths to clarify your core position at this time - the framework on which the detailed events are hung so to speak. Obviously, we're all free to change our minds in the future so presenting your thoughts as they stand at this point in time does not mean you are forever beholden to stand fast to them.
- Jeff
You have laid out a reply to Andrew far better than I could have formulated. Hopefully he will be persuaded.
Best regards, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
But there was someone else in the street; Pipeman. And there are tantalizing suggestions that Pipeman may have been identified, in which case, Schwartz's account would have been corroborated (by which I mean the events not Schwartz's interpretation of the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman - the Lipski stuff).
Sadly for us, the information we have is only suggestive that Pipeman was identified and interviewed, and this is just another one of those times where the police knew more than we do, but we cannot be sure of what that "more" consisted of. But regardless, there was someone else in the street at the time and while we don't have it recorded what their version of the events were it is possible the police did. And if they did, it would have been recorded somewhere at that time. Uncovering that in some misplaced document would be a fantastic discovery. Sigh. If I'm going to be making wishes, I want a pony too.
- Jeff
Good luck with the pony Jeff.
Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Any doubts that the local police might have had about Schwartz story could have originated from Pipeman had they located and interviewed him of course. He and Schwartz might have viewed the incident differently with Schwartz seeing aggression where Pipeman saw drunken horseplay perhaps? And with Fanny’s statement they might have considered the possibility that Schwartz had seen an incident unconnected to the Stride murder that might have occurred at an earlier time. Perhaps around or before 12.30 just before Smith passed along Berner Street especially if Schwartz was simply estimating the time and he had no way of being in a position to confirm it?
Abberline might have been more impressed by Schwartz version than Pipeman’s and he could been right or wrong.
But however we evaluate what we know and however we interpret the timing discrepancies, to suggest that Schwartz lied about being present then we have to consider and assess the actual likelihood of this happening and when we do that the doubts begin to pile up so heavily that when we view them as a list I fail to see how the possibility can carry any weight.Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 03-22-2022, 10:45 AM.Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View PostIf Mortimer had said ...
It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...
... you and the other English speaking posters would have a point. But she didn't say that. Alternatively, if Mortimer had said ...
It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...
... you and the other English speaking posters would have half a point. But she didn't say that either. What she did say, was ...
It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...
Which means something different again, and so you and the other English speaking posters do not have a point. If Mortimer had only seen one man the whole time she was at the door, she would have said so, and not bothered placing black bag man into a special category.
This implicitly assumes that Mortimer was only at her doorstep on one occasion, leading up to the murder. This assumption is not justified. Mortimer's own words combined with other evidence suggests that she was first outside not long after 12:30, and that she remained there nearly the whole time, before seeing Goldstein at close to 1am. This suggests she were at the door in an on-off-on manner. Consequently, we cannot say what period 'previously' refers to. So if she had indeed been in a position to see anything more than once, the question then becomes; previous to what? At this point, the meaning of 'previously' is uncertain, but the breakdown above should at least suggest that she did not use the word 'previously' in a redundant manner. The only way we could resolve this ambiguity, is by turning to other evidence. Here is that evidence ...
I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.
...
He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.
Love,
Caz
XLast edited by caz; 03-22-2022, 01:44 PM."Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Fair point of course Jeff. As you say, the possibility at least exists that they did indeed locate Pipeman who confirmed Schwartz story.
Good luck with the pony Jeff.
While the information we have suggests that Pipeman was identified and interviewed by the police, which would confirm the events Schwartz described but presumably refutes Schwartz's belief Pipeman and B.S. were a team (and that Lipski was shouted at Pipeman, etc), if that suggestion is true it would also explain the statements in the press about how Schwartz's account might not be wholly believed by the police. Basically, the police believe Schwartz's statements with regards to the events, but not his statements about the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman or the intended target of B.S. Lipski. In short, they accepted his facts but did not accept his interpretation of them - so his statement was not wholly believed, but that means it was not wholly disbelieved either. I tend to think this division is what the "not wholly believed/relied upon" statement is in reference to. And if Pipeman was subsequently identified and interviewed, then the police's suspicions would be confirmed.
We get to the same above notion simply via the memo to HO as well, where the alternative explanation for Lipski is given. So identifying Pipeman isn't necessary to get there for the police to have doubts (alternate explanations they believe to be more likely) but a chat with Pipeman would be a way for them to confirm or refute those doubts.
- JeffLast edited by JeffHamm; 03-22-2022, 06:29 PM.
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Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
Hi Herlock,
While the information we have suggests that Pipeman was identified and interviewed by the police, which would confirm the events Schwartz described but presumably refutes Schwartz's belief Pipeman and B.S. were a team (and that Lipski was shouted at Pipeman, etc), if that suggestion is true it would also explain the statements in the press about how Schwartz's account might not be wholly believed by the police. Basically, the police believe Schwartz's statements with regards to the events, but not his statements about the relationship between B.S. and Pipeman or the intended target of B.S. Lipski. In short, they accepted his facts but did not accept his interpretation of them - so his statement was not wholly believed, but that means it was not wholly disbelieved either. I tend to think this division is what the "not wholly believed/relied upon" statement is in reference to. And if Pipeman was subsequently identified and interviewed, then the police's suspicions would be confirmed.
We get to the same above notion simply via the memo to HO as well, where the alternative explanation for Lipski is given. So identifying Pipeman isn't necessary to get there for the police to have doubts (alternate explanations they believe to be more likely) but a chat with Pipeman would be a way for them to confirm or refute those doubts.
- Jeff
Yes it has to be a possibility that any doubt as to the Schwartz incident might simply have been a matter of a difference in interpretation between Schwartz and Pipeman with Abberline favouring the Schwartz version. I know that not everyone will agree but I don’t think that’s it’s so much of a long shot to suggest that a situation of drunken horseplay or even a non-threatening disagreement might have been misunderstood by a non-English speaker walking the streets around midnight and one who might even have been of a nervous disposition in the first place.
Obviously Abberline would have been aware of the clash between the ‘12.45’ of both FM and Schwartz and yet he went with the Schwartz version. Any police doubts might have been because they favoured FM and believed that the incident that Schwartz saw had occurred earlier in the evening taking into consideration estimated times of course?Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
If Mortimer had said ...
It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...
... you and the other English speaking posters would have a point. But she didn't say that. Alternatively, if Mortimer had said ...
It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...
... you and the other English speaking posters would have half a point. But she didn't say that either. What she did say, was ...
It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...
Which means something different again, and so you and the other English speaking posters do not have a point. If Mortimer had only seen one man the whole time she was at the door, she would have said so, and not bothered placing black bag man into a special category.
.[/I]
I realise that Caz has already answered this point (a point that we’ve all responded to at some point) but I’ll add one to your “But she she didn’t say that….” point. She also didn’t say “is saw a man that I’d seen previously,” or “I saw a Jewish looking man for the second time that night,” or “I saw a young Jewish man who I recognised as the man that I’d seen earlier,” or “I’m sure that the man that I saw walking along Berner Street was the same man that I’d seen earlier.”
So at the time of a murder, during a series of high profile murders, a woman sees a man with a black bag hurrying past the site of a murder but she doesn’t explicitly mention that she’d actually seen him twice. This is the problem with reading way too much into one word. It’s also worth noting that nowhere did the police ever mention her seeing him twice and nowhere in the various Press reports did they ever say that the man was seen by FM twice. And we know why. Because she clearly only saw Goldstein once.Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hello Jeff,
Yes it has to be a possibility that any doubt as to the Schwartz incident might simply have been a matter of a difference in interpretation between Schwartz and Pipeman with Abberline favouring the Schwartz version. I know that not everyone will agree but I don’t think that’s it’s so much of a long shot to suggest that a situation of drunken horseplay or even a non-threatening disagreement might have been misunderstood by a non-English speaker walking the streets around midnight and one who might even have been of a nervous disposition in the first place.
Obviously Abberline would have been aware of the clash between the ‘12.45’ of both FM and Schwartz and yet he went with the Schwartz version. Any police doubts might have been because they favoured FM and believed that the incident that Schwartz saw had occurred earlier in the evening taking into consideration estimated times of course?
My reading of Abberline's view is that he suspected that Lipski was shouted at Schwartz during the Schwartz interview, so the doubts around Schwartz's interpretations of the events (at least with regards to any potential relationship between B.S. and Pipeman) arose at that time, which would be before Pipeman was potentially identified and spoken with as well.
Pipeman, if interviewed, may very well have also indicated that he saw a man throw a woman to the ground, etc, but I suppose your suggestion that Pipeman's interpretation of that could also have been very different cannot be dismissed.
My sense is that the police were fairly confident that Schwartz did see a man assault Stride where she was put to the ground, and that the man shouted Lipski. Also, that there was another person present (Pipeman). However, the police were inclined to believe that Lipski was actually shouted at Schwartz and that Schwartz was mistaken in thinking it was shouted to alert Pipeman, and that Pipeman was more likely a 2nd potential witness than a 2nd potential perpetrator. So the police did have "doubts" about the accuracy of some parts of Schwartz's statements and hence, Schwartz's account could not be wholly believed, only partially believed. Basically, the police did not think Schwartz was making the events up, he just didn't fully comprehend what was going on. Finding Pipeman (or B.S.) would allow them to get a 2nd statement to help resolve that (remember, just because the police suspected Schwartz was mistaken doesn't mean he was mistaken and the police would want to know if the correct interpretation was that put forth by Schwartz, who was there, or the police, who are more familiar with criminal events and situations. We know the police did search for Lipski families in the area, so even though they had doubts about Schwartz's statement they didn't dismiss it and followed it as a potential lead.
As to the time conflict of 12:45, I think they would have viewed any statement of time that wasn't based upon a clock reading (i.e. I went inside when I heard the 3/4 of an hour chime strike) as meaning "roughly x o'clock". Basically, Fanny was simply not on her porch at the time Schwartz saw things. My guess is that she went in a few minutes before the Schwartz event, perhaps just after seeing Goldstein pass? But I need to go over all of those statements again and try and sort things out. We're into pretty fuzzy territory by this point. I sometimes wonder if, for example, Goldstein passes after the Schwartz event, so FM has to come out after it, and Goldstein glances at the club because he sees some movement in the dark alley (i.e. the murder). FM then goes inside, Goldstein moves on, and JtR leaves, shortly followed by Deimshutz's arrival. But that would mean the Shwartz event occurs just long enough before Goldstein enters the scene that Schartz and Pipeman have left, and Stride and B.S. are in the ally, but not so much before that B.S. has time to do more than cut her throat (note, presuming that B.S. = JtR of course). I think, though, while exciting, that scenerio is just a bit too tight time wise to justify based upon the information we have. Would make a good movie scene though.
- Jeff
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Originally posted by FrankO View Post
There are 2 types of speculative scenarios: one in which Mr. Broad Shoulders is also Stride's killer and one in which he's not. There's no way for us to determine which is the correct one, however incompatible Schwartz's evidence might be with that of Lamb and Blackwell.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
I know that you object to the ‘few seconds’ but of course that’s only because you’ve sought to portray it as if Schwartz pulled up a chair to watch a dress rehearsal for Twelfth Night. Schwartz walked behind BS man along Berner Street. He saw him stop and talk to Stride. It’s impossible that it took more than a few seconds. Why argue against the obvious?
Several members of the club, including the steward, stated that the yard adjoining the building had never been frequented by unfortunate women. The traffic there is constant, and continues almost all the night through.
This is rather different from the picture we have of no one being in the yard between the time of Eagle's return, and Diemschitz' return. Presumably people inside would have used the outside loos in that period, or have gone outside for the fresh air, as Lave did. Yet no one saw or heard anything suspicious, let alone witnessed the deceased standing at the gates ...
The windows of the clubroom are within ten feet of the spot, whilst the cottages stand almost opposite and command a complete view of it. None of the occupants of these houses, however, heard the faintest noise in the course of Saturday night or Sunday morning. The residents in the yard are tailors and cigarette makers, and they are not in the habit of retiring very early. A reporter who made inquiry among them, however, was unable to find any person who had either seen or heard anything suspicious.
The stopwatch on the Schwartz incident is stopped when either Schwartz stops running, or Berner street is cleared of the other characters in his story - whichever comes last.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post... we are of course then dealing with the probability of Stride being attacked by two men, less than 15 minutes apart...
M.Last edited by Mark J D; 03-24-2022, 11:23 AM.(Image of Charles Allen Lechmere is by artist Ashton Guilbeaux. Used by permission. Original art-work for sale.)
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