If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

We know there was a clock in the club and there is a likelyhood that Koz and Hosch may have looked at it before the discovery of the body.

I disagree. I’d say that we can say with confidence that they didn’t. Please explain how “around 12.45 I should think” remotely sounds like the words of a man that’s just seen a clock? It just doesn’t.

And what reason would they have had for checking the clock? They would have just dashed to the yard after being told.

We also know for sure that Eagle didn't. So they are not in the same boat at all.

I don’t follow your logic at all George. All 3 were in the club. All 3 gave estimated times. Only Eagle specifically says that he didn’t check the clock.

Eagle told the coroner "between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home", so if he "had reason for noting the time less than an hour ago when he had to walk his girl home" he again failed to take the opportunity. Eagle had no idea of the time.

But how can you know that he didn’t see the time when he was on his journey there and back to his girlfriend’s? How do you know that his girlfriend’s father wasn’t standing on the doorstep waiting for her checking his watch?

Nor did Brown. I notice you are still offering Wess, the man who wasn't there, as a support for Diemshitz's time. Can you explain this please? You are asking that we just accept the times that support Diemshitz and just dismiss any other times.

Yes, Wess want there of course, but he was another voice saying 1.00. We also have to ask ourselves George (and this is important) why did the Police, who interviewed everyone and investigated statements, believe the 1.00 discovery time? Why didn’t they jump up and down saying “well these 2 blokes are saying 12.45?” It’s because they didn’t believe them credible. They couldn’t have done. They knew more than we do George so why are we giving them credit when the Police clearly dismissed them. I’m sorry but I dismiss Kozebrodski and Hoschberg. Like the police I believe that they were simply mistaken. I even suspect that one of them got the time from the other.

Lamb was being very clear with his times when responding to the coroner. He said he didn't have a pocket watch to make it clear that he was estimating from the last time he saw a clock. He responded to Reid's question by replying that he had been at the intersection of Commercial and Berner, the location of the Harris clock, some six to seven minutes before he arrived at the yard. In that time he had walked from the Harris clock to the fixed point, and was on his way back when summoned by Eagle and Koze. The fixed point constable wasn't with him (he followed after) so it wasn't yet 1:00.

This isn’t the case George. Just because the Fixed Point officer was still there didn’t mean that it was before 1.00. It was one officers job to go around calling in all fixed point officers so obviously he couldn’t have called them all at exactly 1.00 so it could easily have been 1.05 or later.

Your estimate would require us to accept that he was five minutes out in an estimate of 6-7 minutes and this cannot be entertained. There is only a minute variation in his estimate because he had seen that clock only a short time before. Reid and the Coroner knew what he was saying because they knew there was a clock at that location. They didn't need to be spoon fed by him telling them something so obvious. It would never have entered their heads that he wouldn't have looked at a clock that was so clearly available.

I don’t accept that. He specifically told them that he didn’t have a watch. There can only be one reason for doing so. And that’s because he was letting them know that his time couldn’t be taken as accurate. There can be no other reason. To me this is obvious. He wasn’t sure of the time which doesn’t sound like a man who’s just checked a clock. If he’d just checked a clock he wouldn’t have been so vague. I can’t see why you dispute this point to be honest George. It’s a slam dunk imo.

Looking at the historic photo that I posted earlier, are you still insisting that Diemshitz could have seen the clock from that angle past those masonary pillars. They are at least a brick wide and two bricks deep, and with the 20 foot frontage about two feet apart. Not a chance that he saw the clock behind all that, not physically possible. But we can still come up with a workable timeline from Diemschutz at about 1.00.

Did you post a photograph of that exact shop and clock?

Diemschutz expressed no doubt. If he had an obscured view why would he have said so? What reason would he have had for saying something that wasn’t true?

As I explained to Andrew, I tried to construct a timeline, and include some proposed clock corrections, that would disagree with as few testimonies as possible, and I did stipulate the times were approximate. However, there are some conflicts that just can't be resolved and have to be written off as errors or lies. Smith and Lamb were on foot and had a direct view of the clock. Diemshitz could not have seen the clock from his cart. He may have lied, or he may just have convinced himself that he would've seen the clock. But he didn't.

I disagree. We have zero reason to suspect that Diemschutz lied. If he couldn’t see the clock properly he had zero reason for saying this and we have zero reason to assume it. Therefore the only reasonable position is to state that the clock said 1.00 when Louis passed.

Cheers, George

Could the timings have been slightly out? Yes of course. Could Louis have discovered the body at 12.45? No. Not a chance of it. The evidence points to 1.00. An earlier time makes no sense. It also requires us to believe that the police stood around for 10 or 15 minutes before going for a Doctor. How can this have been the case?

You’ve given your opinion honestly and without trying to manipulate to shoehorn a theory but I still disagree. For me, everything points to a discovery time of 1.00.

And the idea of a cover up of course has now been dismissed which is the most Importent point for me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What is the other side of the lying coin?

DSS: 12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz ... stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.	AF: The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.
LD: On Saturday I left home about half-past 11 in the morning and returned home exactly at 1 a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road.	AF: At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body.

Diemschitz wants a clean gap to be supposed, between an incident on the street that may be connected to the murder, and his discovery of the body. That gap has been pondered ever since, yet in reality, things were a lot murkier and closely spaced.

The cover-up is dead.

[Michael W Richards]

The practice of "dismissing" witnesses purely because they don't fit your theories is not legitimate. Lamb had far more reason for looking at the tobacconist clock than Diemshitz. Eagle, Koze and Hosch were all in the club and had the opportunity of looking at the club clock. It is a fact that Eagle didn't. It is not a fact that Koze and Hosch didn't.

Cheers, George

I very much liked another poster addressing this peculiarity. To remove witnesses without having evidence to do so, not just a contrary statement but perhaps a group of contrary arguments that by content validate the individual stories, is counter productive behaviour. Nothing is discounted before proven to be incorrect. Lambs estimate of when he saw Eagle and arrived at the gates, Issacs statement, Heschbergs, Spooners approximations, the unknown variables with the moments when Fanny actually stood at her door, these statements suggest activities and peoples in the time frame that is most critical...12:40 until 1am....that are not included in any statements given by Louis, Issac, Lave, Morris or Israel. Aside from Israel at that point in time, the 4 other men are directly connected to club operations. Lave I believe acted as photographer for the club and Wess. It is odd that only these men gave times and activities that not one other person saw or heard. Morris returning, Lave at the gate at the same time, Louis arriving, Liz tussling on the street with a hoodlum while a shadowy figure watches....not one person saw or heard any of that aside from the person who claimed to see it. Witnesses hear things they think sound like X and some presume that anyone can attribute that sound to a known individual. Without any visual confirmation.

My point has always been that I believe there is substantial evidence in corroborated statements that suggest Louis arrived well before 1am, Eagle went for help around 12:40-12:45, and that the only people that were seen on that street from 12:30 until 1am was the young couple and Goldstein. I dont dispute contradictory evidence exists, I do assert that until such time as evidence discounts either position, that both must remain as possible.

But logical...probable....reasonable....sensible reconstructions have evidence in the corrobarated accounts. I suggested why the club staff might create a storyline rather than just report or recall one, there may be other reasons for misdirection, but there cannot be dismissal of any of this without newly uncovered hard evidence. That has not been forthcoming.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just like people continually trying to dismiss Diemschutz.

There’s no creditable evidence that Diemschutz arrived at 12.45. It’s not an alternative theory it’s pure dishonesty.

Any answers to the point dismissing the cover up?

Thought not.

Dead duck

[Michael W Richards]

Just like people continually trying to dismiss Diemschutz.

There’s no creditable evidence that Diemschutz arrived at 12.45. It’s not an alternative theory it’s pure dishonesty.

Any answers to the point dismissing the cover up?

Thought not.

Dead duck

Not sure who your arguing with here. No-one has said 12:45 was his arrival time, if you didnt know that check back through the posts. Youve said it was 12:45 in order to try and counter an idea that Louis arrived before 1am. If Israel was telling the truth then thats proof he didnt arrive at 12:45, and if the many witnesses who said they saw Louis by the dying woman around 12:40 are telling the truth, then Louis didnt arrive then either.

Ive said, and stand by, Louis provably did not arrive at 1, could not reasonable have arrived shortly after 1 and still work with the police times like Lambs, and that based on witnesses that said he was in the passageway at 12:40, he must then have arrived before 12:40. We know that at 12:35 Liz is seen by Smith and no mention of Louis arriving, so it would seem that he might have arrived between 12:35 and 12:40. Since Fanny didnt see him, perhaps she went back in after Smith left for a few minutes and missed the arrival. Or maybe he arrived before 12:30...remember, we have only his word as security for his whole story. No-one saw him arrive, or at what time.

Sort of like when Blotchy left room 13...we dont know, no-one saw him leave, we only know when Bowyer looked into the room via the window, he wasnt there. Ergo, he left sometime between 11:45pm Thursday night and around 11am Friday morning.

Deductive reasoning can be used in the Stride investigations as well, you can conclude that if there is no evidence other than hearsay that something happened, deductive reasoning would suggest nothing did happen. If however multiple unconnected sources give essentially the same stories...times, activities, people...then its more probable something did happen when they say it did.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not sure who your arguing with here. No-one has said 12:45 was his arrival time, if you didnt know that check back through the posts. Youve said it was 12:45 in order to try and counter an idea that Louis arrived before 1am. If Israel was telling the truth then thats proof he didnt arrive at 12:45, and if the many witnesses who said they saw Louis by the dying woman around 12:40 are telling the truth, then Louis didnt arrive then either.

I’ll correct you again - 2 witnesses.

Ive said, and stand by, Louis provably did not arrive at 1,

And you’re wrong. As usual.

could not reasonable have arrived shortly after 1 and still work with the police times like Lambs,

Caz’s well made point puts the Lamb nonsense to bed.

and that based on witnesses that said he was in the passageway at 12:40, he must then have arrived before 12:40. We know that at 12:35 Liz is seen by Smith and no mention of Louis arriving, so it would seem that he might have arrived between 12:35 and 12:40.

Or he around at 1.00. As he said by reading the time from a clock. No estimates required.

Since Fanny didnt see him, perhaps she went back in after Smith left for a few minutes and missed the arrival. Or maybe he arrived before 12:30...remember, we have only his word as security for his whole story. No-one saw him arrive, or at what time.

In fact, no one saw Louis arrive any time at all that night. Are we to assume that he materialised or should we just accept that some things occur without being observed - shock, horror!

Sort of like when Blotchy left room 13...we dont know, no-one saw him leave, we only know when Bowyer looked into the room via the window and he wasnt there. Ergo, he left sometime between 11:45pm Thursday night and around 11am Friday morning.

Shall I ask again? Ok, I will…..

How come in your cover up the alleged plotters went ahead knowing full well that everyone in the yard/club would be interviewed by the police and that some, like Koz, Hoschberg and Spooner hadn’t been told?

How can they have run through the streets yelling for a police officer hoping that no one would hear them or that those that did couldn’t have noted that it was before Louis was supposed to have arrived back?

[Michael W Richards]

Just like people continually trying to dismiss Diemschutz.

There’s no creditable evidence that Diemschutz arrived at 12.45. It’s not an alternative theory it’s pure dishonesty.

Any answers to the point dismissing the cover up?

Thought not.

Dead duck

You see with comments like above you mistakenly state that others have set a 12:45 arrival time for Diemshutz... when in fact no-one but you has. Then you mock like youve won something, like youve defeated some counter point to your own beliefs. You like to take victory laps here while the game is still ongoing, maybe try and reach a finish line with some actual evidence to counter the arguments you dont want to accept as real, or....oh,.. I dont know,. ...maybe just shut up?

[Herlock Sholmes]

You see with comments like above you mistakenly state that others have set a 12:45 arrival time for Diemshutz... when in fact no-one but you has. Then you mock like youve won something, like youve defeated some counter point to your own beliefs. You like to take victory laps here while the game is still ongoing, maybe try and reach a finish line with some actual evidence to counter the arguments you dont want to accept as real, or....oh,.. I dont know,. ...maybe just shut up?

Firstly, you have mentioned 12.45 as a possible arrival time so instead of sidestepping why don’t you tell us when you believe that he returned.

Secondly, no response to the 2 points that disprove your cover-up I see.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Deductive reasoning can be used in the Stride investigations as well, you can conclude that if there is no evidence other than hearsay that something happened, deductive reasoning would suggest nothing did happen. If however multiple unconnected sources give essentially the same stories...times, activities, people...then its more probable something did happen when they say it did

Invention and gross exaggeration. Two men give times that differ from all other times given. Spooner even disputes those 2. Could it get worse. 3 dodgy guesses that don’t even support each other. Events point away from this of course. Therefore these two were very clearly mistaken and no amount a conspiracist waffle is going to change this. I’ve already shown how the cover-up plot couldn’t have happened. It’s a dead duck. It was a dead duck 20 years ago and you can’t resurrect a dead thing Baron Richardstein.

[GBinOz]

Just like people continually trying to dismiss Diemschutz.

There’s no creditable evidence that Diemschutz arrived at 12.45. It’s not an alternative theory it’s pure dishonesty.

Any answers to the point dismissing the cover up?

Thought not.

Dead duck

Hi Herlock,

The day before the inquest Diemshitz gave multiple interviews where he stated that he arrived back at his usual time, about one o'clock. Not once did he mention a clock. At the inquest he said once only that he saw a clock. Conflicting statements. You are dismissing multiples of Diemshitz's statements, I am dismissing one. You are basing your entire theory on a self contradicting statement by one person. About one o'clock is believable, exactly one o'clock is fiction.

Celebrating a victory by answering your own question yourself is just not cricket.

You asked "Did you post a photograph of that exact shop and clock?" Yes, it is the exact shop. The lower part of the window can't be seen because of the placement of the wagon in the foreground. This is physical evidence from the 1880s. Did you not even look at it? I even provided a link that showed another photo of the scene from a different angle with the Harris sign clearly visible. The masonary can be seen to be preventing any chance of seeing a clock from an oblique angle, so even were the wagon not there the clock could not be seen, which is the point I am making. To see the clock in a photo you would have it would have to have been taken from nearly right in front, where Lamb would have been. Do you really think that Reid and the Coroner wanted to listen to a rendition from Lamb and Smith on which clocks they used on their beats and what times they were showing. It was understood that the police constables had an obligation to keep track of time and to use all resources available to that end. They didn't have the Eagle luxury of saying "Nah, I knew there was a clock there but I decided not to look at it and just guessed the time from a couple of hours earlier". You speculate that maybe Eagle's girlfriend's father was waiting with a time from a clock. Applying your "Lamb logic", if he didn't specifically say it happened, it didn't happen. When Lamb stated that he had no pocket watch he was making clear the source of his time estimate - six to seven minutes after being at the location of the Harris clock.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

The day before the inquest Diemshitz gave multiple interviews where he stated that he arrived back at his usual time, about one o'clock. Not once did he mention a clock. At the inquest he said once only that he saw a clock. Conflicting statements. You are dismissing multiples of Diemshitz's statements, I am dismissing one. You are basing your entire theory on a self contradicting statement by one person. About one o'clock is believable, exactly one o'clock is fiction.

Celebrating a victory by answering your own question yourself is just not cricket.

You asked "Did you post a photograph of that exact shop and clock?" Yes, it is the exact shop. The lower part of the window can't be seen because of the placement of the wagon in the foreground. However, the masonary can be seen to be preventing any chance of seeing a clock from an oblique angle, so even were the wagon not there the clock could not be seen, which is the point I am making. This is physical evidence from the 1880s. Did you not even look at it? I even provided a link that showed another photo of the scene from a different angle with the Harris sign clearly visible.

Cheers, George

Round in circles we go George. I don’t know how I missed it but I did. Can you link me to it please.

For me Caz nailed it. Lamb was as good as telling us that his time shouldn’t be taken as accurate. If he was remotely sure about his time he would not have mentioned his not having a watch. For me it gets no clearer than this. I think that Lamb was simply mistaken and possibly a little incompetent. Caz also pointed this out. I agree with her. Louis said that he saw a clock. Lamb didn’t. Louis over Lamb in this instant for me.

There’s no contradiction in Diemschutz. Why are you so determined to show that he was wrong? I’m happy with Louis seeing the clock at 1.00 and Eagle getting to Lamb at around 1.05. We have no need to quibble on these times though. We know that no one lied and we know that there was no cover up. This is all that matters for me.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

FM didn't know what time Stride was murdered.

She doesn't need to know. In talking to the couple, they made it clear to her that they had been at the scene when they became aware that a murder had occurred. That is the 'worst case scenario'. The best case is that Fanny was aware the couple had been standing at the corner, because she could see them from her doorstep. Whatever the case, the DN report makes it quite clear that the couple were present at the time, and did not independently return to the spot after hearing whistles.

DN: It also transpired that shortly before the man with the pony trap raised the alarm that a woman had been murdered. A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found.

There is only one reason anyone would want to move this couple on, well before the murder, and that is to clear the stage for Schwartz & co.

We don't know how far Pipeman ran after Schwartz, just that it wasn't to the arches. My opinion is not very far, just far enough to see Schwartz off. Don't know where Parcelman went, but could guess and say back to the club for whatever purpose. I think the parcel was political literature. Wess said at the inquest "Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there".

So Pipeman was indeed an accomplice to BS? What sort of accomplice? He doesn't warn BS of Schwartz' presence, before the assault occurs, so what good is he? Then in the Star account, supposedly the same man comes out of the pub doorway after BS has drunkenly walked down Berner street. That sounds like a coincidence, to me.

If Parcelman had picked up that literature, then run into Stride on the street, one could easily guess why the two might have quickly departed prior to Mortimer opening her door. Yet as a club member, or at least a member of another club, he would have to fit Smith's description.

Two conflicting testimonies. Can't both be right. Pick whichever one you like.

If Spooner's 5 minutes is included, and it is supposed that Lamb was alerted shortly before 1am, then the murder and discovery have to be pushed right back - to the extent that Arbeter Fraint's estimate looks accurate. On the other hand, if Diemschitz is to be believed, then including the 5 minutes pushes the police arrivals so far forward, that it becomes impossible for Fanny to have locked up by 12:45.

Hi Andrew,

I was trying to construct a timeline, including suggested clock corrections, that disagrees with as few statements as possible, but some statements are going to be contradictory. As I said before, it is easy to snipe at others timeline, and to present leading questions. Let us all see your full proposal.

Cheers, George

George,
my only snipe is in regard to your removal of the board school couple. Removing Spooner's 5 minutes does not seem as arbitrary, but it does seem like a big call. As for me doing a timeline, that would be pointless - I'm a non-Schwartzist, surrounded by Schwartzists.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, Wess want there of course, but he was another voice saying 1.00.

This isn't supposed to be a comedy

The cover-up is dead.

So can you explain why Diemschitz sharpened-up his arrival time, at the inquest?

[Herlock Sholmes]

This isn't supposed to be a comedy



So can you explain why Diemschitz sharpened-up his arrival time, at the inquest?

He didn’t.

[Herlock Sholmes]

ginally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

This isn't supposed to be a comedy

Really. We’ve had a comedy cover-up. All manner of comedy mysteries. Even a few comedy suspects.

All that we need as for Admin to add a ‘throw custard pie’ button.