If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

My estimated timeline:

Approx 12.30 Wess, his brother and Louis Stansley left the club seeing nothing suspicious. He estimated the time that he left from the time that he arrived at his lodgings which were 5 minutes walk away.

Approx 12.30 Charles Letchford passed and saw nothing to report. He stated that his sister was at the door at 12.50 and saw no one pass. (I’m unsure if we know that she lived elsewhere in the street but if the “at the door” was accurate then I assume that they lived at the same address?)

Approx 12.31 Joseph Lave goes into the yard and walks around for 5 minutes or so before going back inside. There are so many conflicting versions of what Lave did that it’s impossible to pin him down.

Approx 12.35 PC Smith passed down Berner Street. Either Lave had just gone inside when Smith passed or he was simply inside the yard and not looking toward the street as he passed. Smith sees the couple on the opposite side to the club near the corner Fairclough Street. He is confident that the woman was Stride.

Approx 12.36 Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He goes into the club seeing nothing unusual.

Approx 12.37 Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep. She sees a couple who she apparently also speaks to after the discovery of the body.

Approx 12.45 Fanny goes back indoors after seeing Leon Goldstein pass.

Approx 12.45 James Brown goes to get his supper. He sees a couple in Fairclough Street near the corner of Berner Street. He appears to have said that he was ‘certain’ and then ‘almost certain’ that it was Stride although he gives no description of her and sees no flower.

Approx 12.46 Stride says ‘no’ to the man with her and they part company with Stride walking across the the gateway.

Approx 12.46 Israel Schwartz passes and witnesses the incident outside the yard. He disappears down Fairclough Street.

Approx 12.48 Brown exits the shop and returns home with his supper.

Approx 1.00 Louis Diemschutz returns and discovers the body of Stride.

Approx 1.01 Diemschutz and Koz head into Fairclough Street in search of a Constable while Eagle heads to Commercial Road. In short time Diemschutz returns with Spooner but Koz continues toward Commercial Road where he meets up with Eagle and Lamb as they are returning.

Approx 1.05 Lamb, Eagle, 426H and Koz get back to the yard.

Approx 1.06 Smith arrives at the yard just after Lamb.

Approx 1.07 426H is sent to get Dr Blackwell

Approx 1.08 426H arrives and speaks to Johnston.

Approx 1.12 Johnston arrives at the yard.

Approx 1.16 Dr Blackwell arrives at the yard. Any suggestion of time difference here can only be a suggestion that Blackwell’s watch was wrong.

…….


None of these times are exact. All come with the acceptance of a reasonable margin for error. Does it explain every single detail of what went on? Definitely not. That would be a fruitless task with so many unknowns but whilst I’m not claiming that the above is a spot on perfect version of events as far as times are concerned I’d say that there are no proven facts that can disprove these events so we can’t say that they didn’t occur something like the above version. So the above version (agreeing with Frank) is a plausible version. If minor changes/suggestions were suggested there could be no claim from me that they were definitely wrong. I continue to see absolutely no reason for or evidence of any deliberate lies and certainly there’s no evidence or motive for any cover up. Indeed the evidence against a cover up are self evident in my opinion and can be dismissed with total confidence however much this might annoy.

I take the view that Hoschberg and Kozebrodski were simply mistaken. There is nothing in these events which lends weight to the suggestion that Diemschutz discovered the body at 12.45 or just before. Yes of course Eagle was estimating too but when I compare Eagle with Hoschberg and Kozebrodski It’s just too much to ask. At the very least, with Eagle leaving the club to go to his girlfriends house and then returning from a journey that he would have undertaken numerous times, we have a more likely person to have been aware of the time as opposed to basically two men in a club. I think that it’s even possible that one got his time from the other. Maybe they were in hearing distance when interviewed? Whatever responses I believe that these two witness were wrong.

Are we ever going to get to a point where we all say “yes, that’s exactly what happened.” I’d say that if there’s one thing that we can be certain of is that we’ll never reach that point. My position is that the above is something like what happened. I see no reason to believe any major differences and I’m doubly certain that no cover up occurred.

[Michael W Richards]

As you built the format lets use it shall we;

My estimated timeline:

Approx 12.30 Wess, his brother and Louis Stansley left the club seeing nothing suspicious. He estimated the time that he left from the time that he arrived at his lodgings which were 5 minutes walk away.

No issues there.

Approx 12.30 Charles Letchford passed and saw nothing to report. He stated that his sister was at the door at 12.50 and saw no one pass. (I’m unsure if we know that she lived elsewhere in the street but if the “at the door” was accurate then I assume that they lived at the same address?)

No major issues

Approx 12.31 Joseph Lave goes into the yard and walks around for 5 minutes or so before going back inside. There are so many conflicting versions of what Lave did that it’s impossible to pin him down.

Lave: "In a statement to the press, he claimed that he had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am to get a breath of fresh air: "So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions"

Approx 12.35 PC Smith passed down Berner Street. Either Lave had just gone inside when Smith passed or he was simply inside the yard and not looking toward the street as he passed. Smith sees the couple on the opposite side to the club near the corner Fairclough Street. He is confident that the woman was Stride.

Undoubtably the last sighting of Stride alive on record. And by police.

Approx 12.36 Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He goes into the club seeing nothing unusual.

Eagle: "I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way.'

Approx 12.37 Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep. She sees a couple who she apparently also speaks to after the discovery of the body.

So you acknowledge she spent at least some time at her door, magnanimus, but she did say "nearly the whole time" after all.

Approx 12.45 Fanny goes back indoors after seeing Leon Goldstein pass.

Leon Goldstein passes a full 10 minutes later than your reconstruction indicates...according to his statement and Fannys.

Approx 12.45 James Brown goes to get his supper. He sees a couple in Fairclough Street near the corner of Berner Street. He appears to have said that he was ‘certain’ and then ‘almost certain’ that it was Stride although he gives no description of her and sees no flower.

Since we already can state with some confidence that a young man and woman were in that immediate area that half hour, thats almost certainly the same couple Brown saw. And Liz under any light would not be confused as a "young" woman.

Approx 12.46 Stride says ‘no’ to the man with her and they part company with Stride walking across the the gateway.

Approx 12.46 Israel Schwartz passes and witnesses the incident outside the yard. He disappears down Fairclough Street.

Obviously you know he said 12:45 but I guess you got caught having too many things at 12:45 and had to push this one.

Approx 12.48 Brown exits the shop and returns home with his supper.

Not sure of the relevance.

Approx 1.00 Louis Diemschutz returns and discovers the body of Stride.

So he claims. That obviously contrasts with witnesses that saw him there 15-20 minutes earlier, and Fanny Mortimer who while at her door at 1 saw no-one arrive.

Approx 1.01 Diemschutz and Koz head into Fairclough Street in search of a Constable while Eagle heads to Commercial Road. In short time Diemschutz returns with Spooner but Koz continues toward Commercial Road where he meets up with Eagle and Lamb as they are returning.

Problem is you have the search party dashing out within a minute of the alledged discovery when he said he went inside and checked on his wife first, you have "Koz" saying he already left about 20 minutes earlier, and Lamb arriving back with Eagle and Coz about 5 minutes to 1, by Lambs timing.

Approx 1.05 Lamb, Eagle, 426H and Koz get back to the yard.

if Louis had arrived at 1 then this would be about the time the search parties actually went out. Of course that wont fit with your argument, so instead youve accused multiple witnesses of being incorrect.

Approx 1.06 Smith arrives at the yard just after Lamb.

I really think you need to re-read what time Lamb said he arrived with Eagle again, youve moved it 10 minutes later than he said.

Approx 1.07 426H is sent to get Dr Blackwell

Approx 1.08 426H arrives and speaks to Johnston.

[B]Approx 1.12 Johnston arrives at the yard.[/B]

He was there at 1:10.

Approx 1.16 Dr Blackwell arrives at the yard. Any suggestion of time difference here can only be a suggestion that Blackwell’s watch was wrong.

These things likely did occur around those same times, its just all the rest you buggered up to fit your own idea of what happened. Since the statements dont agree with you youve just tossed the conflicted ones.

I see no reason to believe any major differences and I’m doubly certain that no cover up occurred.

You have many reasons to believe major differences but with what you wrote you just ignore them, and Im beginning to think you have some overly dramatic idea of what a conspiracy can consist of. ALL of the Senior Investigators for example engaged in conspiratorial acts as part of their jobs, daily. One person asking another to say something and having them say it is a conspiracy.

This CONSPIRACY you have no doubt did not occur is becoming more apparent the more you try and place people in times they did not themselves give.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As you built the format lets use it shall we;

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
My estimated timeline:


Approx 12.30 Wess, his brother and Louis Stansley left the club seeing nothing suspicious. He estimated the time that he left from the time that he arrived at his lodgings which were 5 minutes walk away.

No issues there.

Approx 12.30 Charles Letchford passed and saw nothing to report. He stated that his sister was at the door at 12.50 and saw no one pass. (I’m unsure if we know that she lived elsewhere in the street but if the “at the door” was accurate then I assume that they lived at the same address?)

No major issues

Approx 12.31 Joseph Lave goes into the yard and walks around for 5 minutes or so before going back inside. There are so many conflicting versions of what Lave did that it’s impossible to pin him down.

Lave: "In a statement to the press, he claimed that he had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am to get a breath of fresh air: "So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions"

The problem is that, as Frank posted earlier, there’s around 5 different versions of what he said that he’d done. So how can we know which one, if any, was correct. The one that you’ve quoted is obviously incorrect because it has nothing happening by 1.10 so that’s not the best quote to use is it?

Approx 12.35 PC Smith passed down Berner Street. Either Lave had just gone inside when Smith passed or he was simply inside the yard and not looking toward the street as he passed. Smith sees the couple on the opposite side to the club near the corner Fairclough Street. He is confident that the woman was Stride.

Undoubtably the last sighting of Stride alive on record. And by police.

Approx 12.36 Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He goes into the club seeing nothing unusual.

Eagle: "I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way.'

As I said in my post and as I’ve said numerous times we can’t hold witnesses who were estimating to exact times. I don’t know Michael but you maybe the only person that doesn’t accept this.

Approx 12.37 Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep. She sees a couple who she apparently also speaks to after the discovery of the body.

So you acknowledge she spent at least some time at her door, magnanimus, but she did say "nearly the whole time" after all.

You know that I’ve never said that she spent no time on her doorstep but I’d certainly challenge her ‘nearly the whole time’ claim. I’m repeating but it appears to be necessary - she said that she went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed. So are you claiming that Smith was 10 or 15 minutes out in his estimate of the time that he passed?

Approx 12.45 Fanny goes back indoors after seeing Leon Goldstein pass.

Leon Goldstein passes a full 10 minutes later than your reconstruction indicates...according to his statement and Fannys.

I can’t recall seeing where Goldstein himself gave a time?

Approx 12.45 James Brown goes to get his supper. He sees a couple in Fairclough Street near the corner of Berner Street. He appears to have said that he was ‘certain’ and then ‘almost certain’ that it was Stride although he gives no description of her and sees no flower.

Since we already can state with some confidence that a young man and woman were in that immediate area that half hour, thats almost certainly the same couple Brown saw. And Liz under any light would not be confused as a "young" woman.

Approx 12.46 Stride says ‘no’ to the man with her and they part company with Stride walking across the the gateway.

Approx 12.46 Israel Schwartz passes and witnesses the incident outside the yard. He disappears down Fairclough Street.

Obviously you know he said 12:45 but I guess you got caught having too many things at 12:45 and had to push this one.

Im not going to keep explaining what an estimated time is Michael. I do wish you’d try and understand this point.

Approx 12.48 Brown exits the shop and returns home with his supper.

Not sure of the relevance.

Approx 1.00 Louis Diemschutz returns and discovers the body of Stride.

So he claims. That obviously contrasts with witnesses that saw him there 15-20 minutes earlier, and Fanny Mortimer who while at her door at 1 saw no-one arrive.

Kozebrodski and Hoschberg were mistaken and if explained about Fanny too many times to keep repeating.

Approx 1.01 Diemschutz and Koz head into Fairclough Street in search of a Constable while Eagle heads to Commercial Road. In short time Diemschutz returns with Spooner but Koz continues toward Commercial Road where he meets up with Eagle and Lamb as they are returning.

Problem is you have the search party dashing out within a minute of the alledged discovery when he said he went inside and checked on his wife first, you have "Koz" saying he already left about 20 minutes earlier, and Lamb arriving back with Eagle and Coz about 5 minutes to 1, by Lambs timing.

His wife wasn’t at the top of Canary Wharf Michael. She was just inside the door. Koz was wrong. Lamb didn’t say he was at the yard at 12.55. Have you been looking in the Khatmandhu Gazette again? Lamb said that he saw Eagle just before 1.00 or elsewhere ‘around 1.00.’ I’m suggesting he was 5 minutes out. Big deal.

Approx 1.05 Lamb, Eagle, 426H and Koz get back to the yard.

if Louis had arrived at 1 then this would be about the time the search parties actually went out. Of course that wont fit with your argument, so instead youve accused multiple witnesses of being incorrect.

Two witness Michael. Koz and Hoschberg - not multiple.

Im struggling to see your point. You’ve just suggested that he’d have spent time inside the club. What’s it to be? I have the search parties going out a minute after Louis gets back and returning to the yard at around 1.05. What’s wrong with that?

Approx 1.06 Smith arrives at the yard just after Lamb.

I really think you need to re-read what time Lamb said he arrived with Eagle again, youve moved it 10 minutes later than he said.

No I don’t because I understand the concept of an estimation Michael. Something that you repeatedly fail to do when it suits you.

Approx 1.07 426H is sent to get Dr Blackwell

Approx 1.08 426H arrives and speaks to Johnston.

[B]Approx 1.12 Johnston arrives at the yard.[/B]

He was there at 1:10.

Pointless nitpicking plus poor maths. He said that he got there 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell. 1.16 minus 4 = 1.12.

Approx 1.16 Dr Blackwell arrives at the yard. Any suggestion of time difference here can only be a suggestion that Blackwell’s watch was wrong.

These things likely did occur around those same times, its just all the rest you buggered up to fit your own idea of what happened. Since the statements dont agree with you youve just tossed the conflicted ones.

No Michael, I’ve just taken estimations to have been just that and eliminated the two that are way out. The two that you rely on.

I see no reason to believe any major differences and I’m doubly certain that no cover up occurred.

You have many reasons to believe major differences but with what you wrote you just ignore them, and Im beginning to think you have some overly dramatic idea of what a conspiracy can consist of. ALL of the Senior Investigators for example engaged in conspiratorial acts as part of their jobs, daily. One person asking another to say something and having them say it is a conspiracy.

Ive never said the people don’t cover things up Michael. Just that I like to see evidence of it before I accept it. I’m a bit boring that way.

This CONSPIRACY you have no doubt did not occur is becoming more apparent the more you try and place people in times they did not themselves give.

Again Michael, estimates. If I’ve made any provable errors then I’ll admit them but I won’t accept “he couldn’t have done x at 12.50 because he said 12.51.” Ive also pointed out at the beginning that I’m not suggesting that the times that I’ve put are cast in stone exact. They’re approximations.

When we look at your conspiracy Michael the weaknesses are obvious.

1) You need to keep proposing that it’s a proven fact that Fanny went onto her doorstep when it’s not. From her own lips we have her saying that she went onto her doorstep just after Smith. So the question has to be “why do you repeatedly ignore that?”

2) You rely on two witnesses (Kozebrodski and Hoschberg) who are way out compared to the majority. We might also ask you 2 questions, a) if they were by the body at 12.45 Louis must have returned just before, say 12.44. You like exact times - so why didn’t Fanny see him? And b) if they were with the body at 12.45 why didn’t 426H get to Blackwell’s until 20-25 minutes later? Did he stop for a pint or two?

3) Simply saying Diemschutz lied or Eagle lied with no proof of this is as hollow as it gets.

4) When we add all this to the fact that the plots motive is entirely implausible and it’s execution would make The Keystone Cops look like the FBI then it’s blatantly obvious that there’s nothing there but an exercise in wish-thinking.

[GBinOz]

Question: Was Smith correct in identifying Stride as one of the couple that he saw in Berner Street considering that Mortimer claimed that she spoke to them after the discovery of the body?

Hmmm...Trick question?

Two Part answer:
Was Smith correct in identifying Stride as one of the couple that he saw in Berner Street....YES, he identified the body as the woman he saw.
Mortimer claimed that she spoke to them after the discovery of the body?....She didn't say that. She said she spoke to a young couple.

I wonder if that question was leading to part of your timeline, as follows.

Your timeline suggests that Stride and Parcelman were standing opposite the gateway the entire time that your timeline has Mortimer at her door. Are you proposing:-
1. That Mortimer didn't see them standing there or
2. Mortimer didn't consider that seeing Stride standing there with a man was sufficiently unusual or important to mention or
3. She thought that Stride and Parcelman were the young couple?

Stride and Parcelman were standing on the opposite side Berner St slightly north of the gateway, not near Fairclough.

My comments on consistency: You are considering that Mortimer's times are running fast and you adjust them to accommodate Smith's stated time of passing. Then Mortimer's time as stated suddenly becomes correct to allow Diemshitz at one. You accept Smith's times in Berner Street, but reject his one o'clock time at the Commercial Rd corner, and Lamb's 1:00 at the yard in order to stipulate Diemshitz single statement of sighting the Harris clock at exactly one o'clock. That is not consistent, it's called cherry picking.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Approx 1.00 Louis Diemschutz returns and discovers the body of Stride.

Approx 1.01 Diemschutz and Koz head into Fairclough Street in search of a Constable while Eagle heads to Commercial Road. In short time Diemschutz returns with Spooner but Koz continues toward Commercial Road where he meets up with Eagle and Lamb as they are returning.

So he claims. That obviously contrasts with witnesses that saw him there 15-20 minutes earlier, and Fanny Mortimer who while at her door at 1 saw no-one arrive.

Problem is you have the search party dashing out within a minute of the alledged discovery when he said he went inside and checked on his wife first, you have "Koz" saying he already left about 20 minutes earlier, and Lamb arriving back with Eagle and Coz about 5 minutes to 1, by Lambs timing.

MWR,
I was thinking about your claim that there were 4 men around the body at about 12:40, including Eagle. From the Telegraph:

Did you notice anything lying on the ground near the gates? - I did not.

Did you pass in the middle of the gateway? - I think so. The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide. I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was.

Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then? - I do not know, I am [not?] sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates.

You have formed no opinion, I take it, then, as to whether there was anything there? - No.

Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but you seem to take this as a hint that Eagle did indeed see an object on the ground, yet chose to ignore it.

Eagle in the People, Oct 7:

I noticed nothing near the gateway, but the deceased might have been concealed by the darkness. As soon as I entered the yard I could hear singing in the club. I went upstairs, and in about twenty minutes a man named Giddleman came rushing in and said, "There is a Woman Lying Dead in the Yard."

Does Eagle mean it was so dark he might have walked right passed the victim, if indeed she had been there at the time, or does he mean he saw something indistinct and continued on into the club?

Regarding your claim that there was not one but actually four men around the body at this time, that would surely beg the question; if Eagle was unsure about what he was seeing, why did he not simply ask one of the other three for clarification?

What do make of the following? Eagle in the People continues:

I went out, and striking a match found a woman lying with her feet 6ft from the gate, near the club wall, with her head to the wall. Others came with me, but seemed frightened to go near. Assuming it was drunken and not a dead woman, before striking a match, I said, "Get up." There being no reply, I then ignited a match, and was fearfully upset by seeing a woman lying in a lot of blood. I immediately ran away for a policeman, and found two.

Where do suppose Diemschitz was at this point? Was he one of the others Eagle refers to? Did not Diemschitz himself return to the yard with a candle, given to him by his wife who had been in the kitchen? Presumably that had already occurred, and Diemschitz had already departed for police. This is what LD told the press...

One of the members who is known as Isaacs went out with me. We struck a match and saw blood running from the gate all the way down to the side door of the club. We had the police sent for at once, but I believe it was several minutes before a constable could be found.

So presumably he and Isaacs went looking for police, before Eagle struck his match. So what did Eagle say at the inquest? Times, Oct 2:

I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police.

So Kozebrodsky was with Eagle when Eagle struck the match. So what happened first - Eagle doing this or Diemschitz returning to the yard with a candle? Well I guess Kozebrodsky could resolve the matter. Does he...?

I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.

Doesn't that just mean that Kozebrodsky had returned from Grove street, and was with Eagle when Eagle struck the match, followed by both men running off for police in the direction of Commercial Road? There's just one small problem with this. At the inquest, Diemschitz said:

As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head, and then for the first time I saw the wound in her throat. Just at that time Eagle, a member of the club, and the constables arrived.

Tell me, Michael, who really discovered the body?

[GBinOz]

As a follow up to my previous post regards members of the Vigilance committee being issued with police whistles, here is a published list:


THE MEMBERS OF THE WHITECHAPEL VIGILANCE COMMITTEE

George Lusk - President	Joseph Aarons - Treasurer
Mr. B. Harris - Honorary Secretary	Mr. J. A. Cohen - Committee Member
Mr. Reeves - Committee Member	Mr. Haughton - Committee Member
Mr. Lindsay - Committee Member	Mr. Jacobs - Committee Member
Mr. Isaacs - Committee Member	Mr. Mitchell - Committee Member
Mr. Hodgins - Committee Member	Mr. Barnett - Committee Member
Mr. Lord - Committee Member	Mr. Lawton - Committee Member
Mr. Vander Hunt - Committee Member	Mr. Sheed - Committee Member
Mr. Van Gelder - Committee Member	Albert Bachert - Chairman (1889)

Remembering that Kozebrodski was also known as Isaacs and Eagle saw Jacobs outside the gateway, we appear to have corroboration that Hoschberg and Harris were probably correct about the early whistle. Note that there is a Harris also a member.

Here is a quote by Chris McKay on Clock history:
I am not familiar with church clocks in Whitechapel, but their clock setting was often at the whim of the clock winder. Perhaps plus or minus 10 minutes could be expected, or even more.
So, if the working man's watch or clock was within 10 minutes of true time, I would think that good for the 1880s.

I think it would be fair to say that this could possibly apply to the the Club clock.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As a follow up to my previous post regards members of the Vigilance committee being issued with police whistles, here is a published list:

George, why not place this info in the thread on this subject?

[GBinOz]

MWR,
I was thinking about your claim that there were 4 men around the body at about 12:40, including Eagle. From the Telegraph:

Did you notice anything lying on the ground near the gates? - I did not.

Did you pass in the middle of the gateway? - I think so. The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide. I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was.

Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then? - I do not know, I am [not?] sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates.

You have formed no opinion, I take it, then, as to whether there was anything there? - No.

Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but you seem to take this as a hint that Eagle did indeed see an object on the ground, yet chose to ignore it.

Eagle in the People, Oct 7:

I noticed nothing near the gateway, but the deceased might have been concealed by the darkness. As soon as I entered the yard I could hear singing in the club. I went upstairs, and in about twenty minutes a man named Giddleman came rushing in and said, "There is a Woman Lying Dead in the Yard."

Does Eagle mean it was so dark he might have walked right passed the victim, if indeed she had been there at the time, or does he mean he saw something indistinct and continued on into the club?

Regarding your claim that there was not one but actually four men around the body at this time, that would surely beg the question; if Eagle was unsure about what he was seeing, why did he not simply ask one of the other three for clarification?

What do make of the following? Eagle in the People continues:

I went out, and striking a match found a woman lying with her feet 6ft from the gate, near the club wall, with her head to the wall. Others came with me, but seemed frightened to go near. Assuming it was drunken and not a dead woman, before striking a match, I said, "Get up." There being no reply, I then ignited a match, and was fearfully upset by seeing a woman lying in a lot of blood. I immediately ran away for a policeman, and found two.

Where do suppose Diemschitz was at this point? Was he one of the others Eagle refers to? Did not Diemschitz himself return to the yard with a candle, given to him by his wife who had been in the kitchen? Presumably that had already occurred, and Diemschitz had already departed for police. This is what LD told the press...

One of the members who is known as Isaacs went out with me. We struck a match and saw blood running from the gate all the way down to the side door of the club. We had the police sent for at once, but I believe it was several minutes before a constable could be found.

So presumably he and Isaacs went looking for police, before Eagle struck his match. So what did Eagle say at the inquest? Times, Oct 2:

I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police.

So Kozebrodsky was with Eagle when Eagle struck the match. So what happened first - Eagle doing this or Diemschitz returning to the yard with a candle? Well I guess Kozebrodsky could resolve the matter. Does he...?

I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.

Doesn't that just mean that Kozebrodsky had returned from Grove street, and was with Eagle when Eagle struck the match, followed by both men running off for police in the direction of Commercial Road? There's just one small problem with this. At the inquest, Diemschitz said:

As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head, and then for the first time I saw the wound in her throat. Just at that time Eagle, a member of the club, and the constables arrived.

Tell me, Michael, who really discovered the body?

Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but you seem to take this as a hint that Eagle did indeed see an object on the ground, yet chose to ignore it.

I know this was asking an opinion from Michael, but I'll take the liberty of offering an answer. You're wrong. Eagle was saying he didn't see a body, but he couldn't say that it wasn't there, just that he may have missed it in the darkness. The coroner also wondered whether anyone could walk past the body in the dark and put that question to Diemshitz. Diemshitz replied yes, and that he would have driven his cart past the body had not the horse shied.

So Kozebrodsky was with Eagle when Eagle struck the match. So what happened first - Eagle doing this or Diemschitz returning to the yard with a candle?

My reading of the testimony is that Koze accompanied Diemshitz with the candle, Diemshitz alerted club members on the ground floor and Giddleman went up stairs to alert those members. Jacobs came out (this may be where he blew his whistle, if it was him) and left with Diemshitz towards Grove St. Koze stayed by the body (this may be where he blew his whistle, if it was him) until Eagle arrived and they left to search, but in different directions. Note that Koze says he "took the direction towards Grove St", not that he went to Grove St. If he turned up Batty St he would have arrived at Commercial Road just about the right time to meet Eagle and then find Lamb between Batty and Christian Sts. The less likely interpretation is that Koze abandoned his Fairclough search early (Diemshitz and Jacobs were already on that path after all), came back to the yard and left with Eagle from there.

Sorry to butt in on your question to Michael.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

George, why not place this info in the thread on this subject?

Done!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

My reading of the testimony is that Koze accompanied Diemshitz with the candle, Diemshitz alerted club members on the ground floor and Giddleman went up stairs to alert those members. Jacobs came out (this may be where he blew his whistle, if it was him) and left with Diemshitz towards Grove St. Koze stayed by the body (this may be where he blew his whistle, if it was him) until Eagle arrived and they left to search, but in different directions. Note that Koze says he "took the direction towards Grove St", not that he went to Grove St. If he turned up Batty St he would have arrived at Commercial Road just about the right time to meet Eagle and then find Lamb between Batty and Christian Sts. The less likely interpretation is that Koze abandoned his Fairclough search early (Diemshitz and Jacobs were already on that path after all), came back to the yard and left with Eagle from there.

The Irish Times contradicts the notion that Isaacs stayed behind...

A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain, but the heart had ceased to beat, and the stream of blood in the gutter terminating in a hideous pool near the club door showed but too plainly what had happened.

Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman, and at the same time other members of the club had by this time found their way into the court, and went off with the same object in different directions. The search was for some time fruitless. At last, however, after considerable delay, a constable was found in Commercial road.

I would also suggest that Eagle and Isaacs linking up seamlessly at the top of Batty street, so that to Lamb they appeared to have been running along together, seems a bit of a stretch.

Having said that, let's consider the notion that Isaacs was left by the body while others searched for police. I would imagine they would have left Isaacs to guard the entrance, in case anyone being drawn to the initial movements and cries, was tempted to enter the yard. In other words, Isaacs would have been given instructions to stand in the gateway. Now when a man from the vigilance committee is indeed drawn toward the yard, with young Isaacs guarding the gateway, what do you suppose might have occurred?

I can imagine this stout WVC patrolman might have tried to pull Isaacs out of the gateway and toward the street. Isaacs resists, but the man just turns him around and throws him down on the footway. Isaacs exclaims "No!, No!, No!", but in a tempered fashion so as to not attract any further attention. The man ignores the pleas not to enter, and not only discovers the victim lying dead or dying, but finds a large knife near the victim. He soon decides to alert one of the neighbors he had recently seen standing on her doorstep...

Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.

Something like that, perhaps?

Sorry to butt in on your question to Michael.

No prob, and thanks for posting that info on the WoBS thread.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hmmm...Trick question?

Two Part answer:
Was Smith correct in identifying Stride as one of the couple that he saw in Berner Street....YES, he identified the body as the woman he saw.
Mortimer claimed that she spoke to them after the discovery of the body?....She didn't say that. She said she spoke to a young couple.

So the reliable Fanny sees this couple twice?

Evening News Oct 1st

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

Daily News Oct 1st

“A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.”

These are a couple of the reasons why I’ve always said that we have to take what Fanny said (or perhaps more accurately….what was attributed to her) with a pinch of salt.

I wonder if that question was leading to part of your timeline, as follows.

Your timeline suggests that Stride and Parcelman were standing opposite the gateway the entire time that your timeline has Mortimer at her door. Are you proposing:-
1. That Mortimer didn't see them standing there or
2. Mortimer didn't consider that seeing Stride standing there with a man was sufficiently unusual or important to mention or
3. She thought that Stride and Parcelman were the young couple?

From reading what’s attributed to Fanny above it appears to me that there was no couple standing across the street at this time. Isn’t it possible that Fanny saw a couple earlier in the evening (perhaps shortly prior to Smith’s passing) and then she saw the same couple again after the body was discovered as they returned to Berner Street (possibly after hearing of the murder?)

Stride and Parcelman were standing on the opposite side Berner St slightly north of the gateway, not near Fairclough.

The Times (Inquest) 6th Oct

“Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.”

The Telegraph (Inquest) 6th Oct

“She stood on the pavement a few yards from where the body was found, but on the opposite side of the street.”

Evening News 6th Oct

“She stood on the pavement a few yards on the opposite side of Berner street from where she was”

George, I can’t see where you get your very specific information from? I’m not suggesting that it isn’t stated somewhere but these 3 versions don’t specify where they were standing.

My comments on consistency: You are considering that Mortimer's times are running fast and you adjust them to accommodate Smith's stated time of passing. Then Mortimer's time as stated suddenly becomes correct to allow Diemshitz at one. You accept Smith's times in Berner Street, but reject his one o'clock time at the Commercial Rd corner, and Lamb's 1:00 at the yard in order to stipulate Diemshitz single statement of sighting the Harris clock at exactly one o'clock. That is not consistent, it's called cherry picking.

Im not adjusting George. I can’t understand why, on the one hand you accept a margin for error, yet on the other you object when it’s applied. I’m not talking about Diemschutz ‘clock’ or Mortimer’s ‘clock’ all that I’ve done in effect is to imagine looking down on those events with a watch in my hand and noting the times. The aim was just to give one possible timeline using times. Times can vary of course.

Mortimer actually wasn’t stating an exact time. She was estimating and so we have to consider any ways of tying down her time if possible. She also stated that she went onto her doorstep just after Smith of course so we have a choice between her own estimate of around 12.45 or Smith’s estimate of 12.30-12.35. And so at the very least George we have the possibility that she went onto her doorstep earlier and, that as a result, she’d gone back indoors when Schwartz passed. This is why I say that we can’t use Mortimer to disprove Schwartz.

So Diemschutz and Fanny’s times are independent of each other. I don’t have to move either to accommodate the other. I’ve already accepted that the Diemschutz clock might have been out but I don’t think by much. So I’ve left it at 1.00 for the purpose of the timeline.

Im not cherry-picking Smith either George. Every estimation can be incorrect but we can’t say that they have to be consistent. We can’t say that if a man makes an estimate and we later discover that he was 5 minutes early then any future estimates and errors will be 5 minutes early. Smith estimated 12.30-12.35 for his first pass. I believe that he said that his beat took 25-30 minutes? So if we go with 30 minutes (why not?) then we would have expected his second pass at 1.00-1.05. These times are well within a reasonable margin for error.

And on the subject of Diemschutz and Lamb, I’ve accepted that the clock might have been incorrect and that Diemschutz time and Lamb’s might be adjusted accordingly but we can prove something that’s unprovable….that Lamb took his timing estimation from the same clock as Diemschutz. You appear to be assuming just that though George. Additionally George, on the subject of cherry picking, why is it ok to suggest that Louis misread the clock but not that Lamb might have misread the clock?


Cheers, George

My timeline agrees with Frank’s (I consulted Frank’s timeline when I was compiling it as a check) and I have a high level of confidence in events occurring in that order. All that I’ve done is that I’ve added times as a way of threading events together on the understanding that they are all subject to a reasonable + or -. I’ve categorically manipulated nothing. As long as I haven’t proposed anything that’s provably impossible I see no meaningful issues. And (while I accept again that you aren’t proposing a cover up) I’d make the point that due to the estimating that went on and the differing Press reports there’s is nothing that can be pointed to which disproves this version of events.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As a follow up to my previous post regards members of the Vigilance committee being issued with police whistles, here is a published list:


THE MEMBERS OF THE WHITECHAPEL VIGILANCE COMMITTEE

George Lusk - President	Joseph Aarons - Treasurer
Mr. B. Harris - Honorary Secretary	Mr. J. A. Cohen - Committee Member
Mr. Reeves - Committee Member	Mr. Haughton - Committee Member
Mr. Lindsay - Committee Member	Mr. Jacobs - Committee Member
Mr. Isaacs - Committee Member	Mr. Mitchell - Committee Member
Mr. Hodgins - Committee Member	Mr. Barnett - Committee Member
Mr. Lord - Committee Member	Mr. Lawton - Committee Member
Mr. Vander Hunt - Committee Member	Mr. Sheed - Committee Member
Mr. Van Gelder - Committee Member	Albert Bachert - Chairman (1889)

Remembering that Kozebrodski was also known as Isaacs and Eagle saw Jacobs outside the gateway, we appear to have corroboration that Hoschberg and Harris were probably correct about the early whistle. Note that there is a Harris also a member.

Here is a quote by Chris McKay on Clock history:
I am not familiar with church clocks in Whitechapel, but their clock setting was often at the whim of the clock winder. Perhaps plus or minus 10 minutes could be expected, or even more.
So, if the working man's watch or clock was within 10 minutes of true time, I would think that good for the 1880s.

I think it would be fair to say that this could possibly apply to the the Club clock.

Cheers, George

George, you said to me in another post that Diemschutz went looking for a Constable with someone called Jacobs and not Koz. I forgot to respond until reminded by NBFN’s post.

“One of the members who is known as Isaacs went out with me. We struck a match and saw blood running from the gate all the way down to the side door of the club. We had the police sent for at once, but I believe it was several minutes before a constable could be found.”

”I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police.”

“A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up.”

As far as I’m aware it’s always been considered that Louis went for a Constable with Koz?

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

It appears that we have got ourselves tangled up with cross communications. If the first of the posts above you appear to think that I was talking about Mortimer. I wasn't. You said you were using Frank's timeline as a template but he had Stride proceeding to the yard before Mortimer comes to her door. Your timeline has Stride proceeding to the yard after Mortimer went back inside.

I was disagreeing with your statement that Stride was near Fairclough by saying:
Stride and Parcelman were standing on the opposite side of Berner St slightly north of the gateway, not near Fairclough.
The Times (Inquest) 6th Oct
“Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.”

My post agrees with the Times and the other 2 references, which designate exactly where she was standing, at a place clearly visible to Mortimer.

I think we've exhausted our time discussions, but I have to conclude that I'm happy to accept +/_ 10 minutes on times. Our difference is that I want to adjust Diemshitz times to fit police times, and you prefer to adjust police times to fit Diemshitz 1:00 clock sighting times. But we're only 5-10 minutes apart.

"Additionally George, on the subject of cherry picking, why is it ok to suggest that Louis misread the clock but not that Lamb might have misread the clock?"

If Louis observed the Harris clock it was from a considerable distance at an oblique angle whilst crossing a major thoroughfare on a small horse drawn cart after a long day at the markets with no real need to know the time. Lamb was on foot and would have observed the clock at a favourable angle from a close distance and had an imperitive nedd to know the time. Bear in mind that Lamb had two opportunities to observe the clock within 6-7 minutes so I consider that he is unlikely to be out by 5-6 minutes.

George, you said to me in another post that Diemschutz went looking for a Constable with someone called Jacobs and not Koz. I forgot to respond until reminded by NBFN’s post.

From the Times 2 Oct 1888 Inquest testimony by Eagle:-
When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street

Diemshitz said that Koze was with him when he came back with a candle (or match) and saw the blood. But Eagle also said Koze was with him after the alert had been raised and he had come down stairs and struck a match to view the body. So Diemshitz must have gone out the gate and headed south along Berner and then east along Fairclough followed shortly after by Koze. Koze said he went "in the direction of Grove St" not to Grove St. If Koze was with Eagle when Diemshitz and Jacobs left then he was slightly behind them when he reached Fairclough. So if he left at the same time as Eagle, who went up Berner St, and if Koze turned north into Batty St from Fairclough, he would have run into Eagle at the corner of Batty and Commercial, and then spotted Lamb between Batty and Christian Sts. If Koze had been with Diemshitz and ran to Grove St and turned up Batty on his way back he would have missed Eagle in Commercial Road. The only way that that proposal would work is if Koze returned to the yard and took off with Eagle from there. There is a bit of interpretation required to decipher the conflicting inquest reports, but this is my best analysis.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

It appears that we have got ourselves tangled up with cross communications. If the first of the posts above you appear to think that I was talking about Mortimer. I wasn't. You said you were using Frank's timeline as a template but he had Stride proceeding to the yard before Mortimer comes to her door. Your timeline has Stride proceeding to the yard after Mortimer went back inside.

I was disagreeing with your statement that Stride was near Fairclough by saying:
Stride and Parcelman were standing on the opposite side of Berner St slightly north of the gateway, not near Fairclough.
The Times (Inquest) 6th Oct
“Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.”

My post agrees with the Times and the other 2 references, which designate exactly where she was standing, at a place clearly visible to Mortimer.

I think we've exhausted our time discussions, but I have to conclude that I'm happy to accept +/_ 10 minutes on times. Our difference is that I want to adjust Diemshitz times to fit police times, and you prefer to adjust police times to fit Diemshitz 1:00 clock sighting times. But we're only 5-10 minutes apart.

"Additionally George, on the subject of cherry picking, why is it ok to suggest that Louis misread the clock but not that Lamb might have misread the clock?"

If Louis observed the Harris clock it was from a considerable distance at an oblique angle whilst crossing a major thoroughfare on a small horse drawn cart after a long day at the markets with no real need to know the time. Lamb was on foot and would have observed the clock at a favourable angle from a close distance and had an imperitive nedd to know the time. Bear in mind that Lamb had two opportunities to observe the clock within 6-7 minutes so I consider that he is unlikely to be out by 5-6 minutes.

George, you said to me in another post that Diemschutz went looking for a Constable with someone called Jacobs and not Koz. I forgot to respond until reminded by NBFN’s post.

From the Times 2 Oct 1888 Inquest testimony by Eagle:-
When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street

Diemshitz said that Koze was with him when he came back with a candle (or match) and saw the blood. But Eagle also said Koze was with him after the alert had been raised and he had come down stairs and struck a match to view the body. So Diemshitz must have gone out the gate and headed south along Berner and then east along Fairclough followed shortly after by Koze. Koze said he went "in the direction of Grove St" not to Grove St. If Koze was with Eagle when Diemshitz and Jacobs left then he was slightly behind them when he reached Fairclough. So if he left at the same time as Eagle, who went up Berner St, and if Koze turned north into Batty St from Fairclough, he would have run into Eagle at the corner of Batty and Commercial, and then spotted Lamb between Batty and Christian Sts. If Koze had been with Diemshitz and ran to Grove St and turned up Batty on his way back he would have missed Eagle in Commercial Road. The only way that that proposal would work is if Koze returned to the yard and took off with Eagle from there. There is a bit of interpretation required to decipher the conflicting inquest reports, but this is my best analysis.

Cheers, George

On the couple George, I still can’t see how you’ve deduced that they couldn’t have been near the corner of Fairclough Street as all of the versions that I’ve seen recently (and I haven’t looked at every one) don’t specify. For eg.

“Was she on the pavement? – Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.”

He’s not saying which direction. I might have overlooked something George but you’ll have to point it out.

……..

Three questions:

1) George, I can’t recall if this has been pointed out on a map (I assume so) but can you remind me where the clock was please? If I walked to where Berner Street went into Commercial was it to the left or right and near or far side of the road?

2) How can we be certain that Diemschutz was crossing a road at the time that he saw the clock and that he didn’t see the clock before he crossed?

3) Can we be certain that Lamb crossed on the same side as the clock?

……

. I think we've exhausted our time discussions

I tend to agree George. When we have a situation overloaded with estimates where we can apply the + or - rule to then pretty much every single event can have a 10 minute range giving endless variations. I bet that even just with my timeline we could produce 30 versions without changing the order of things. Then if we alter the timeline even slightly….. None of us can prove one in favour of another. As I said, I’m absolutely convinced that no cover up or conspiracy took place and I see no reason to suggest that anyone lied. I’m certain that Liz Stride was murdered though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Diemshitz said that Koze was with him when he came back with a candle (or match) and saw the blood. But Eagle also said Koze was with him after the alert had been raised and he had come down stairs and struck a match to view the body. So Diemshitz must have gone out the gate and headed south along Berner and then east along Fairclough followed shortly after by Koze.

Also from the Irish Times:

"A member named Isaacs went down into the yard with me, and we struck a match. We saw blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable. At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one in Commercial road."

That sounds like Louis and Isaacs ran together.

Koze said he went "in the direction of Grove St" not to Grove St.

If Isaacs left separately to Louis, why would he go in the same direction that Louis and Jacobs had gone in? Seems redundant.

If Koze was with Eagle when Diemshitz and Jacobs left then he was slightly behind them when he reached Fairclough.

If Eagle's match lighting is an independent event to Louis' view by candle, then your 'slightly behind' might amount to about 30 seconds. Could be more. So what did Spooner see...?

We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

Not three, apparently.

So if he left at the same time as Eagle, who went up Berner St, and if Koze turned north into Batty St from Fairclough, he would have run into Eagle at the corner of Batty and Commercial, and then spotted Lamb between Batty and Christian Sts.

Only by chance would they arrive at that point at the same time. Besides that does not fit well with Isaacs' quote...

I went in the direction of Grove street, and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial road, and there along with Eagle I found two officers.

Does 'afterwards' imply he took a detour off Louis's route, or does it sound more like he first returned to the yard?
So what is Eagle up to while this is happening? Is is hanging around waiting for them...?

I struck a light and saw her covered in blood. I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police.

Nope. So who did Eagle leave with...?

Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first, but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables, and I told them there was a woman murdered in Berner-street.

Let's hear his name!

If Koze had been with Diemshitz and ran to Grove St and turned up Batty on his way back he would have missed Eagle in Commercial Road. The only way that that proposal would work is if Koze returned to the yard and took off with Eagle from there. There is a bit of interpretation required to decipher the conflicting inquest reports, but this is my best analysis.

Diemschitz was probably wrong about Eagle and the PCs returning just as Spooner was observing the wound. Fanny said that 'Lewis' was in the yard when she entered it, so at that point the search is ongoing. Eagle, on the other hand, was probably right that Isaacs was with him when Eagle left, and that Diemschitz left with Jacobs, not Isaacs. Eagle must have witnessed these two leaving, suggesting that the searches were pretty much concurrent, as you would expect.

So both Louis and Isaacs are suggesting that Isaacs went down to/towards Grove street, but it's quite possible he did not. Nor did Isaacs leave with Eagle. Isaacs stayed at the yard, and while he was there, there was an incident at the gates. We call it the Schwartz incident.