If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

. my reading suggests that PC Collins was the fixed point PC station which was at the corner of Grove St

George, the Fixed Point Officer was called Ayliffe.

[Fiver]

Herlock has said many times that too much emphasis is placed on exact times and I fully agree. In 1888 few people owned timepieces. Doctors usually had clocks in their homes and pocket watches. The police did not usually carry pocket watches but, due to the necessity of keeping track of time for their job purpose, would have availed themselves of any timepieces on their round to assist that purpose. Access to a time piece did not assure an accurate time as they may not have been synchronised to GMT or each other. It is critical that a benchmark timepiece be nominated to co-ordinate times. In this case the benchmark timepiece would be the clock in the premises of Harris Tobacconist on the eastern corner of Commercial Road and Berner St from which Diemshitz determined that it was “exactly” 1 o’clock when he turned into Berner St.

There are contradictory accounts of where Diemschutz saw a clock.

"On Saturday I left home about half-past 11 in the morning and returned home exactly at 1 a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road." - Lewis Diemschutz, 2 October 1888 Daily News.

"On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace...'" - Lewis Diemschutz, 2 October 1888 Daily Telegraph

That Market is well south of Berner Street. The shortest route to Dutfield's Yard would be by way of Fairclough Street. Was there a baker's near the corner of Fairclough and Berner?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Surely you accept that Smith wasn’t a robot? Not every round would have taken the same amount of time. He gave a 25-30 minute average. Is it such a stretch to suggest one round taking 31 minutes (just as an example?)

So what I’ve suggested should be entirely plausible to anyone. First pass 12.35 - 30 mins round - second pass 1.05 or 1.06. I don’t see how this can be considered unreasonable or implausible?

Do you accept what Frank says in this post...?

Hi George,

It wasn't PC Collins who was at the fixed point station on the corner of Grove Street, but PC 426 H. Collins appeared at the crime scene before Smith arrived there (when Smith arrived, he identified the 2 PC present as constables 12 H and 252 H (Times of 6 October) - PC 426 H hadn't returned from the doctor's, yet). Collins very likely went to the crime scene as a result of Lamb's whistle blowing.

All the best,
Frank

Do you accept that Smith did not run to the crime scene? Do you also accept that Collins most likely went to the doctor's surgery by running back up Berner street? Smith did not see Collins do that.
The gap between the arrival of Lamb/Ayliffe, and Smith, must have been a few minutes, not under a minute as you need to suppose.

Smith did not give a 25 to 30 minute average time for his beat. The average was 27½ minutes, with a 'margin of error' of 2½ minutes. So if Smith were last in Berner street at 12:30 or 12:35, then that average tells us he is back at about 1am - just as he said - not 1:08 or 1:09.

None of this changes by considering who was most likely to be right - Smith or Mortimer. If Smith was right about his earlier time, then he is even more likely to have been right about the later time - a time he most probably wrote in his notebook, after arriving at the yard. You seem to be aware of this, which is why you have little choice but to suppose Smith arrived so soon after Lamb. Without this fudge, your timing model collapses.

So why don't you simply accept that Smith last passed the yard at closer to "shortly before a quarter to one o'clock", then he supposed? Obviously, because that is a threat to the authenticity of the story given by Schwartz, and that is not acceptable to you.

Collins very likely went to the crime scene as a result of Lamb's whistle blowing.

If that that was the reason, then he would have run in the direction of the sound of the whistle. The man James Brown witnessed being called to Berner street, was not running...

Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

...because it was not Collins, it was Spooner.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

12:45 ish - Schwartz goes down Berner Street.
Brown leaves his house and goes to the Chandler shop in Berner St.

Without witnessing one man apparently chasing another.

12:49 ish - Brown leaves the shop and sees Mrs Stride on the corner of the board school.
Florence Letchford is standing in her doorway.

If she had been at her doorway, why didn't she see anyone enter or leave the yard? In a recent post, you said Florence Letchford stayed at her door until about 1am. All we have to go on, is what Charles said...

...my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by.

Which seems somewhat beside the point. With one exception...

12: 55 ish - Goldstein goes down Berner St.

Why didn't Florence see Leon?

12:58 ish - Mortimer locks up and soon after hears Diemshitz’s cart pass by.

If Stride had been at the board school corner at about 12:49, and both Fanny and Florence locked up at about 12:58, then when exactly did the murder occur?

The only thing I’d point to Dusty is that Lamb got to the yard before Smith.

It's not clear why you suppose that needs pointing out. Other than that, are you happy with Mortimer's lockup time?

[GBinOz]

There are contradictory accounts of where Diemschutz saw a clock.

"On Saturday I left home about half-past 11 in the morning and returned home exactly at 1 a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road." - Lewis Diemschutz, 2 October 1888 Daily News.

"On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace...'" - Lewis Diemschutz, 2 October 1888 Daily Telegraph

That Market is well south of Berner Street. The shortest route to Dutfield's Yard would be by way of Fairclough Street. Was there a baker's near the corner of Fairclough and Berner?

Hi Fiver,

I've seen an explanation for this that suggested that Diemshitz may have said "the Harris baccy shop" and this was mis-heard by the journalist as the Baker shop. There were two Tobacco shops in Commercial Road between Berner and Batty Streets, and this statement was at the inquest, so one journalist got it wrong (Baker), one dropped the "Harris" part and one got it right.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

It wasn't PC Collins who was at the fixed point station on the corner of Grove Street, but PC 426 H. Collins appeared at the crime scene before Smith arrived there (when Smith arrived, he identified the 2 PC present as constables 12 H and 252 H (Times of 6 October) - PC 426 H hadn't returned from the doctor's, yet). Collins very likely went to the crime scene as a result of Lamb's whistle blowing.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

This is from the inquest:
Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed - About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something. I went towards them. They said, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner-street, they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner-street I ran, followed by another constable, 436 H.

This is from the Wiki:
Edward Collins
Reserve Police Constable Edward Albert Collins, 12HR.
Born 1847. Joined Metropolitan Police in 1873 (warrant no.56929), subsequently transferred to reserve.

Accompanied PC Henry Lamb to Dutfield's Yard after Lamb was alerted to the discovery of Elizabeth Stride's body by Morris Eagle in Commercial Road at a little after 1.00am, 30th September 1888. Collins was sent to fetch Dr Frederick Blackwell from his house at 100 Commercial Road, and returned to the scene with Edward Johnston, Blackwell's assistant.

At 5.30am, PC Collins washed the blood from the yard^[1]. He also stated that there was no traces of blood on the walls.^[2]

Collins has also been called constable 426H (by Lamb)^[3] and 436H (by Johnston).^[4]

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hello George,

Id say that ‘a few’ can’t be quantified. 5 or 10 is a few. I could easily see myself saying a few minutes to describe 10 minutes.

Hi Herlock,

I accept that is your interpretation, it just doesn't happen to agree with the dictionary or common useage. My grandfather was born in 1898 and he told me that a few meant three. He also used the terms "shortly" and "presently" to denote short measures of time..i.e. I'll be there presently. Presently was a slightly longer period than shortly.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

While reviewing I've come across some curiosities:

Liz was thought to have taken up with the brother of her former employer, who probably could be thought of as a toff.

She had some time before been involved with George Morris, the night watchman at Kearley and Tonge's and former police officer. Given the population of the area at that time, what are the odds of Morris having involvement with two of the Whitechapel murder victims?

Michael Kidney turned up at Leman street to loudly protest Liz's death before her body had been identified. Since they had been parted for five days and he didn't know if or when she might return, how did he deduce that she was the Berner St victim? I can envisage a scenario we he somehow found out she was out with someone else, and where they might be, found her in the yard waiting for her new beau to complete whatever he was doing in the yard, and killed her in a fit of drunken jealousy. The suspicious man seen after the murder in Church Lane would have been on a direct backstreet route to 38 Dorset St, where Kidney lived at the time.

Cheers, George

[DJA]

Hi Herlock,

I accept that is your interpretation, it just doesn't happen to agree with the dictionary or common useage. My grandfather was born in 1898 and he told me that a few meant three. He also used the terms "shortly" and "presently" to denote short measures of time..i.e. I'll be there presently. Presently was a slightly longer period than shortly.

Cheers, George

A few has always meant more than two,usually three.

Ripper mate

[GBinOz]

I need to profer an apology for my previous rant about the incoherancy of the testimonies of Marshall and Brown. It appears that it was the journalist that was mixing up the order of their statements that made their statements look incoherant.

I can commend to all the reports of the inquest made by the journalist for the Morning Advertiser. They are clear, concise and cohertant, and they contain information that has been ommited by other journalists. Furthermore, and this will make Herlock's day, in the Morning Advertiser's account of Smith's testimony is included a description of his beat which includes Gower's walk.
This completely different to what is shown on the animated map on the casebook site, and necessitates a re-examination of my previously entrenched opinions about from which direction Smith approached the Harris Clock.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Attention all. Abandon your pencils, battleaxes and field artillery pieces.

It's all been done comprehensively before, right here:

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-smiths-beat.html

Read and marvel as did Alexander when he beheld the glories of Egypt.

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

Gavin’s piece is the gold standard, a great piece of work. It’s little bit dated now, a couple of errors, but a good place to start.

[GBinOz]

Gavin’s piece is the gold standard, a great piece of work. It’s little bit dated now, a couple of errors, but a good place to start.

Dusty, you knew of the existance of this piece and didn't draw my/our attention to it? Did Herlock know of its existance when he asked how I knew Smith's route and I referred him to the OTHER map? ..... Aaargh.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Do you accept what Frank says in this post...?

Do you accept that Smith did not run to the crime scene? Do you also accept that Collins most likely went to the doctor's surgery by running back up Berner street? Smith did not see Collins do that.
The gap between the arrival of Lamb/Ayliffe, and Smith, must have been a few minutes, not under a minute as you need to suppose.

How long would it have taken Collins to have run from the yard to 1.00 Commercial Road? A minute or so? Johnston said that he’d arrived at his door between 1.05 and 1.10. We don’t know what time Collins got to the yard originally though so why couldn’t Smith and Collins have arrived seconds apart but from different directions? So for example, Lamb/Ayliffe 1.05, Smith under a minute later at 1.06. Then a few seconds after Smith had arrived Collins arrived and was sent for the doctor, arriving there at around 1.08?

Smith did not give a 25 to 30 minute average time for his beat. The average was 27½ minutes, with a 'margin of error' of 2½ minutes. So if Smith were last in Berner street at 12:30 or 12:35, then that average tells us he is back at about 1am - just as he said - not 1:08 or 1:09.

I shouldn’t have used the word ‘average.’ I should have said ‘range.’ My whole point though is that if the route usually took 25-30 minutes why do you consider it impossible that it might have taken 31 or even 32 minutes. If Smith had stopped during his round for some reason for example (yes, I know he didn’t mention anything but would he have considered it that important?) What if he’d stopped to chat to another officer but didn’t want this on record? All that I’m saying is that whilst I’m not suggesting that I know how long any individual round might have taken surely 31 minutes (as a suggestion) can’t be considered a massive exaggeration or an unrealistic stretch. And if we accept that possibility and also accept the possibility that Smith previously passed at 12.35 then a second pass at 1.06 is entirely possible.

None of this changes by considering who was most likely to be right - Smith or Mortimer. If Smith was right about his earlier time, then he is even more likely to have been right about the later time - a time he most probably wrote in his notebook, after arriving at the yard. You seem to be aware of this, which is why you have little choice but to suppose Smith arrived so soon after Lamb. Without this fudge, your timing model collapses.

Its not a fudge it’s a reasonable, unbiased acceptance that we cannot rigidly adhere to timings. Do we really have to keep explaining this very basic principle. The fudge is your unwillingness to accept what everyone knows to have been true. ‘Most likely…’ ‘more likely’ ‘probably.’

One problem with your notion is that I’ve said numerous times that Stride might or might not have been killed by BS Man and that even if BS Man did kill her it’s by no means certain that he was the ripper. I’ve also said that it’s not a definite fact that the killer was interrupted, only a plausible possibility. With that willingness to accept all possible outcomes please tell me why I would be bending over backwards to keep Schwartz in the game? What motive would I have compared to your very obvious predilection for conspiracies and cover-ups? Whether Schwartz was there or not in no way affects any of my opinions. So these FACTS entirely speak against me being in any way biased unless your suggesting that I’m such a passionate Abberline fan that I simply can’t countenance the suggestion of him being fooled. You’re accusation of bias against me is completely and evidentially baseless.

So why don't you simply accept that Smith last passed the yard at closer to "shortly before a quarter to one o'clock", then he supposed? Obviously, because that is a threat to the authenticity of the story given by Schwartz, and that is not acceptable to you.

My previous post negates your assertion entirely.

If that that was the reason, then he would have run in the direction of the sound of the whistle. The man James Brown witnessed being called to Berner street, was not running...

Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

...because it was not Collins, it was Spooner.

Who had undoubtedly just returned from a Fancy Dress Party where he’d gone as a Police Officer. Ok.

The presence or otherwise of Israel Schwartz is of no consequence to me. A fair, reasonable appraisal of the case taking in reasonable considerations is important however.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is no set quantity with the phrase ‘a few.’ Remember this?

'Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few'

Maybe it should have been “Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to those three.”

None of the various definitions mention a number….

1 : consisting of or amounting to only a small number one of our few pleasures. 2 : at least some but indeterminately small in number —used with a caught a few fish. few and far between. : few in number and infrequently met : rare. few.

My uncle lives 12 miles from me. I’d be quite happy and correct to say that he lived a few miles away.

A few simply means a small quantity.