If Schwartz Lied ...

[drstrange169]

>>If he "was earlier than usual, normally arriving half an hour to an hour later" at his "usual" time of 1:00am, then how can the clock be showing 1:00am?<<

As always, your answer is in the evidence. Read the quote for your answer.

[drstrange169]

>>The point being made is that in all the interviews with Diemshitz dated 1 October he never once mentioned seeing the tobacconist clock ... <<

Having worked in the news business for the bulk of my life, I can assure you, what witnesses tell the media and what the police elicit out of them can vary greatly.

Reporters want a story, police want evidence.

[drstrange169]

>>... it would have been far easier for Lamb and Smith to have viewed the clock...<<

But they didn't, because they could only guess the time. Had they looked they would have a. said so and b. given an exact time.

Guesswork is fun, but ultimately, to be any kind of useful, you have to follow the facts as they were presented.

[drstrange169]

>>On top of this I'm finding articles on Diemshitz that indicate he was an unsavoury character, and therefore far less believable that the two police officers. <<

Do you mean when he had to defend his wife against an angry mob of a couple of hundred rioters, whilst the police stood by and let it happen? I'd class that as heroic rather than unsavoury.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Fiver,

This is one of the concerns I had about clock times being used as proof of the Lechmere guilt in the Nichols case. There was a clock tower in the Albion Brewery but I don't know if it was multi-faced or if it chimed the quarter hours. I still regard him as a suspect but based on intervals rather than clock times.

In the Stride case, as in the Nichols case, it is time intervals that matter. The reference clock's relationship to GMT is less important than the time intervals deduced by people who are viewing that same clock. We know that Diemshitz, Smith, Lamb, Johnson, Blackwell, Schwartz and Goldstein were at the corner of Commercial Road and Berner St and had the opportunity to look at the Harris clock. We know that Smith, Lamb, Johnson and Blackwell were coming from the west so would have a clearer view of the clock, and that Diemshitz was probably coming from the east. We don't know which side of the street that Schwartz and Goldstein were on at that intersection. The disagreement we are having revolves around who is likely to have looked at the Harris clock as they passed.

The only real purpose of knowing an accurate discovery time is to determine the interval between when Stride had the knife drawn across her throat and when her body was first seen in the yard. This is the basis of the interruption theory. The time of death was estimated by the doctors, but their methods at that time in history were not all that accurate and they also disagreed with their estimate ranges. Even if we adopted the mean of their closest time estimates for death, which comes out to 12:46, their opinion was that the nature of the wound indicated that she may have taken some minutes to bleed out. The bottom line is, the chance that Diemshitz interrupted JtR is inversly proportional to the interval between the cutting and the finding. Of course the interruption could of been caused by something else. We'll never know.

If we return to the title of this thread, "if Schwartz lied", we have to ask ourselves, why would he voluntarily involve himself in a murder investigation by showing police that he was there at the time of Stride's death and thus making himself a suspect. I can only think that if he lied it could have only been to provide himself with an alibi. IMHO he didn't lie. If he didn't lie, and the body was discovered significantly earlier than 1:00, then the odds of BSM being the killer increase and the odds of BSM being JtR decrease.

I recently discovered that Kosminski lived next to the yard as a youngster. I had discarded him as not being smart enough to be JtR but thought he may have murdered only Stride, and this latest discovery has firmed his odds with me.

Cheers, George

The big word is ‘opportunity.’ They had the ‘opportunity’ of looking at the clock but Diemschutz states for certainty that he did look at the clock. Look at Smih’s time for his earlier passing, 12.30-12.35. A little vague if a few seconds earlier he’d taken particular notice of the clock?

There’s just nothing at all that speaks against the body being found at 1.00 and the murder occurring between 12.45 and 1.00. The killer might or might not have been interrupted. Neither is unlikely but neither are provable.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A few yards east, and still looking east, in circa 1895. The Duke of Clarence pub on the left was at 71 Commercial Road, on the corner of Greenfield Road.


Diemshitz would have been starting his turn from about where the white waggon with the two horses is located.

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

>>Please note that I don't wish to convey an angry or disparaging note in my comments.<<

I certainly haven't taken your comments as angry or disparaging, just a healthy debate where I happen to be right;-)

[Herlock Sholmes]

>>Diemshitz closed his stall earlier than usual so he would have arrived back at the yard earlier than usual ...<<









No matter how people try to alter it to suit their needs, the actual evidence always wins through.

For most of us it does Dusty.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
In other words, Diemschitz' transition from 'about one o'clock' to 'exactly one o'clock', is of fundamental importance to the interruption theory. How unsurprising is that the DN & EN tell us:

The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.

Also unsurprising, his neighbour at #36 had a similar opinion:

He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.

Diemschitz and Mortimer obviously talked about the murder. He gave her the idea of interruption, and she gave him the idea of arriving at Berner street, right on one o'clock.

You see ‘mystery’ in this. No surprise there.

He’d stood next to the body with others including Police Officers and Doctors so it’s hardly surprising that it was a general opinion that Stride hadn’t been dead for long. Combine this with the location and it was a certainty. Diemschutz sees the very obvious possibility that he might have interrupted the killer. Hardly a revelation. We also have to recall that the news was full of the Nichols and Chapman murders and their horrible mutilations. Those standing around the body would naturally connect this to the previous ones and so the question might very well have been asked ‘why no horrible mutilations?’ It wouldn’t take Sherlock Holmes to realise the possibility that Diemschutz might have interrupted the killer before he could begin mutilating.

Yet again, a reasonable explanation is available. No mystery.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It wouldn’t take Sherlock Holmes to realise the possibility that Diemschutz might have interrupted the killer before he could begin mutilating.

Especially if it were believed Mrs Mortimer locked up about 4 minutes before she heard his pony and cart pass her house.
There is no mystery as to why Diemschitz sharpened up his arrival time. Nor is there a mystery as to why you reflexively reject the obvious explanation.

[GBinOz]

George, I think Kattrup was just pointing out that I might have been mistaken in reading about a clock in the Berner Street club by confusing it with the club near to Mitre Square.

Ahh, ok.

[GBinOz]

>>On top of this I'm finding articles on Diemshitz that indicate he was an unsavoury character, and therefore far less believable that the two police officers. <<

Do you mean when he had to defend his wife against an angry mob of a couple of hundred rioters, whilst the police stood by and let it happen? I'd class that as heroic rather than unsavoury.

Is that what happened? I've only gotten to the headline at present.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

>>Please note that I don't wish to convey an angry or disparaging note in my comments.<<

I certainly haven't taken your comments as angry or disparaging, just a healthy debate where I happen to be right;-)

Good for you mate. I love the fact that you're always right.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

He’d stood next to the body with others including Police Officers and Doctors so it’s hardly surprising that it was a general opinion that Stride hadn’t been dead for long.
Yet again, a reasonable explanation is available. No mystery.

No, No, No. Listen to Dusty. This is not the evidence. Blackwell said that he was surprised at the amount of blood on the ground for someone of Liz's size and weight. That much blood doesn't happen in a short time.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hear ye, Hear ye. Here be the rules for time observations:


1. If thou are at the clock thou shall announce the time: Smith: I was at the corner at 1 o'clock.

2. If thou hath been at the clock but have moved away ever so slightly, thou must cite an estimate range.

3. If thou saw a clock some hours ago and can add together a series of estimates, thou shall present it as though it is a real time, because otherwise thou will be thought a dumbarse.

So let it be written, so let it be done!!

Cheers, George