If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Laughable conspiracist nonsense.

You're not getting out of it that easily. Explain how Wess knew of the incident.

Fanny didn’t see Schwartz because she wasn’t on her doorstep for the very short duration of the incident.

Stating opinion as fact. Tut tut.

They pick a ‘witness’ that can’t even speak English - rubbish.

A SECOND MAN CAME OUT of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder.

How did Schwartz know the shouting was directed at the man, and not the woman or Schwartz? How did Schwartz know the shouting was a warning, and in regard to 'the intruder'?
Is it because Schwartz could indeed speak English?

They don’t care that someone might have said that he wasn’t there - rubbish.

Someone was 'there'. The assault incident was also reported by someone else who saw it. It's just that 'there' isn't where you think it was.

They miss the childishly obvious way of showing that the killer wasn’t Jewish (Schwartz saying that he had an Irish accent for eg rather than of having him shout ‘Lipski’) - rubbish.

No mention of 'Lipski' in the Star.

And it’s so important that FM didn’t see Schwartz but it seems that it’s unimportant that she didn’t see Diemschutz arrive back earlier than he said - rubbish.

That is not an argument

In short the suggestion of a cover-up is childish crap that should have been put to bed about 10 minutes after Michael first suggested it.

Nor is that

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If you could switch off the ego you’d be able to assess the case fairly and without bias. Your whole ethos is to search out cover ups and conspiracies and when you can’t find them you invent them.

I do happen to think that I am brilliant, Herlock. But that has nothing to do with having a big ego. It's just my humble opinion.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Which you and Michael use very selectively of course.

Compared to who? Name one other poster who has used the following quote, when assessing Fanny Mortimer.

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Maybe you could explain how you personally use Fanny's quotes in a non-selective way?

[Herlock Sholmes]

This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line.

Ironic

There’s no ‘actors uniform.’ He looked like an actor. Some describe a witness ax having the appearance of a sailor. It’s not literal.

He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter.

Convenient

Inconvenient. If he could have spoken English no interpreter would have been required.

He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.

Suspicious

Not in the slightest.

The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, ...

'Lucky'

Yes, how outrageous. A reporter that couldn’t speak Hungarian. Who’da believed it?


... and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police.

Cobblers

A couple of differences certainly.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
You're not getting out of it that easily. Explain how Wess knew of the incident

Someone told him.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. How did Schwartz know the shouting was directed at the man, and not the woman or Schwartz? How did Schwartz know the shouting was a warning, and in regard to 'the intruder'?
Is it because Schwartz could indeed speak English?

No because he couldn’t speak English.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. No mention of 'Lipski' in the Star.

So what.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And it’s so important that FM didn’t see Schwartz but it seems that it’s unimportant that she didn’t see Diemschutz arrive back earlier than he said - rubbish.

>That is not an argument<

Its a point. To conspiracists it’s important that Mortimer didn’t see Schwartz but unimportant that she didn’t see Diemschutz either.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Compared to who? Name one other poster who has used the following quote, when assessing Fanny Mortimer.

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Maybe you could explain how you personally use Fanny's quotes in a non-selective way?

Yes. I accept the possibility that she might have been mistaken on her time and that Smith might have been correct. If the second was correct, and it’s likelier, then we have s childishly simple explanation for why she didn’t see the Schwartz evidence.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes. I accept the possibility that she might have been mistaken on her time and that Smith might have been correct. If the second was correct, and it’s likelier, then we have s childishly simple explanation for why she didn’t see the Schwartz evidence.

No doubt your childishly simple explanation, took into consideration the following issues.

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

So according to your likelier (preferred) report, Fanny Mortimer:

• could hear Smith passing from inside - she didn't need to be at her door to hear stuff outside
• she immediately went to her door after Smith passes
• she stood outside for 10 minutes, and the "quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time".

So no possibility of an incident at the gates, according to that report, unless you 'tweak' it or discard the report as unsafe.
Even if you choose to tweak it - to make the data fit the theory - your problems are just beginning. The were many other people in hearing distance. The Star:

There was a woman in the kitchen - which is only a few feet from the spot where the body was found, and several other people downstairs, but they heard nothing.

A woman living just opposite says that she was waiting up for her husband and listening for his coming, and she heard nothing to arouse her suspicion.

At the inquest, D-I Reid said: Inquiries were made in the street at the different houses, and no person could be found who heard any disturbance during the night.

Did Spooner see the chase...?

Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. ... After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back.
As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris ...

Apparently not, yet Wess somehow 'knew' about a chase along Fairclough street at about a quarter to one, for which we have zero eye-witness reports. Not only that, Wess had supposedly been told the name of the man who did the chasing! Why don't we ever hear from this man?

It's not looking good for The Actor Formerly Known as Israel Schwartz.

[drstrange169]

>>He could have parked it - there or anywhere else - but he didn't. There was no separate parking action.<<

Really?

Perhaps if you used "proper scholarship" might might have read ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

No doubt your childishly simple explanation, took into consideration the following issues.

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

So according to your likelier (preferred) report, Fanny Mortimer:

• could hear Smith passing from inside - she didn't need to be at her door to hear stuff outside
  
  This has been discussed previously. Firstly, it’s not a case of ‘if you hear one thing then you must hear another.’ If she’d have been talking to her husband for example when Smith passed she might not have heard him. A noise can be missed if your focused on something. Also we might add that we can’t be sure that, it the time of the Schwartz incident, she might have been at the rear part of the house. In the kitchen perhaps. Maybe she’d gone to the loo but didn’t want to mention it.
  
  Equally I could say that she heard the horse and cart around 1.00 so why didn’t she hear the horse and cart if Diemschutz arrived back earlier? True crime is full of examples of investigators saying “how come no one heard…..?”
• she immediately went to her door after Smith passes
  
  And we have 2 opinions as to what time that actually was. If we remove the surrounding circumstances we should ask ourselves this - who was likelier to have been correct? A woman just standing on her front doorstep on a very normal evening (as far as she was aware at the time) and with no real reason to have logged the time (we have no way of knowing if she had a clock of course) or a policeman on a regulated beat. A man who passed clocks on his route and who, under normal circumstances and without any activity on his round) would have passed down Berner Street at the same time every evening on that route.
  
  We can’t say for a 100% certainly that Smith ‘must’ have been correct but at the very least he was just as likely as Fanny to have been correct. I’d say that he had a greater likelihood of being correct. Even going for the ‘just as likely to have been correct’ we have to point out that you and Michael both appear to assume that Fanny was correct and ignore the other possibility. I’d say that was ‘convenient.’
• she stood outside for 10 minutes, and the "quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time".
  
  As above, 10 minutes from when?

So no possibility of an incident at the gates, according to that report, unless you 'tweak' it or discard the report as unsafe.
Even if you choose to tweak it - to make the data fit the theory - your problems are just beginning.

More disingenuous stuff. If anyone is trying to make the data fit the theory it’s you and Michael I’m afraid. You continually dismiss/ignore the idea that Smith might have been correct as to what time he passed along Berner Street. So no I’m not ‘tweaking.’ I’m saying that we have 2 witnesses. One say that x occurred at y while the other says that it occurred at z. We have no certain way of knowing which was correct so why do you choose one as if the other doesn’t exist?

The were many other people in hearing distance. The Star:

There was a woman in the kitchen - which is only a few feet from the spot where the body was found, and several other people downstairs, but they heard nothing.

A woman living just opposite says that she was waiting up for her husband and listening for his coming, and she heard nothing to arouse her suspicion.

At the inquest, D-I Reid said: Inquiries were made in the street at the different houses, and no person could be found who heard any disturbance during the night.

What was there to hear? Apparently Stride screamed but not very loudly. So how loud is that? And what was the duration? Maybe little more that a raised voice and over a very short period? Maybe the equivalent of 3 words or short phrases? ‘Oi !” or “stop it!” Schwartz was only a few feet away remember. Then one word “Lipski.” All over a short period. Even if we say that perhaps it’s surprising that no one heard anything it still doesn’t enter ‘remarkable’ territory. Nowhere near in fact.

Did Spooner see the chase...?.

Ill respond to the Spooner part later as I have to go out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We discussed Ayliffe earlier with NBFN suggesting that Eagle couldn’t have met up with Lamb at around 1.05 because Ayliffe’s Fixed Point shift would have ended at 1.00. I said that he might have still been there at 1.05 because we don’t know how a FP officer knew that his shift had ended. I asked Jon Menges if he could ask Neil Bell how a FP officer new that his shift had ended. Neil replied:


“Timing...the key to comedy.

Section Sergeant. They were in charge of sections within which the beat officers would patrol, as well as the fixed point officers.

Sec serges would March their PCs out on duty, patrol their section so to render assistance if required, and then March them back in. He would essentially round up all the men in his section at change over. He would be the man with the watch.

However not all divisions employed this system. Some would send a reserve out to round the men up.

Also, it was common for fixed points to be located near public time pieces. I cite Christ Church FP during the Chapman murder.

I don’t know the context for this question however I’m assuming it’s to do with times around the Stride murder. With that, and purely throwing it out there, has anyone taken on board the huge clock in Commercial Road near to the Berner Street turn in to consideration? I think Diemschitz set his timings by it.”

Thanks to Neil Bell.

So obviously if a Section Serjeant went around rounding up his men he couldn’t have got to each FP officer at 1.00. Therefore it’s no problem that Ayliffe was still in place when Eagle reached Lamb.

No mystery.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A bit more info from Jon/Neil.

Neil recalled finding out that some H Division FP duties extended until 7.00am. He then found it in Dickens Dictionary of London (which I have but didn’t think of looking at)

“Ah. Got it.

It was in Dickens dictionary of London.

“Apologies if these have been apologised before, but I haven't seen them:

"The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

H or Whitechapel Division

Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
Church-st, Wapping
Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
Hermitage-br, Wapping
Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
Shoreditch Church
Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
Spitalfields Church
Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
Whitechapel Church
White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

*A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."


So only where there’s an asterisk were they on till 7am.”

So 1.00 for Ayliffe.

[FrankO]

A bit more info from Jon/Neil.

Neil recalled finding out that some H Division FP duties extended until 7.00am. He then found it in Dickens Dictionary of London (which I have but didn’t think of looking at)

“Ah. Got it.

It was in Dickens dictionary of London.

“Apologies if these have been apologised before, but I haven't seen them:

"The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

H or Whitechapel Division

Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
Church-st, Wapping
Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
Hermitage-br, Wapping
Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
Shoreditch Church
Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
Spitalfields Church
Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
Whitechapel Church
White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

*A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."


So only where there’s an asterisk were they on till 7am.”

So 1.00 for Ayliffe.

Thanks for inquiring & sharing this, Mike - very interesting!