If Schwartz Lied ...

[caz]

The cut could have occurred in many ways, not all being intentional murder. So again, no. The fact that Schwartz said he saw the victim being assaulted just before that fatal cut is germane to the qustion posed by the Inquest. You and Herlock denying things and countering factual recitation with insults might be good entertainment for you, but it does nothing to futher the pursuit of the truth. Which I for one am interested in.

But I can see that denial is linked to a belief in a specific conclusion with you...like Jack the Ripper killed Stride, so no facts are relevant to you. Like no ripping and only club attendees anywhere near the murder site. Oh yeah, and the single cut. But none of that matters when the smoke and mirrors are applied huh?

Do you even bother to read my posts, Michael? Or do you just have difficulty understanding my position? Do I really need to keep on repeating that I keep an open mind on who may have killed Stride and why?

You state that Schwartz said he saw her being assaulted 'just before' the fatal cut was inflicted - which is all over the place. Firstly you don't believe Schwartz saw anything of the kind, and secondly, if Schwartz was told to lie, to make it sound like she was killed immediately after that assault, by the same thug, it was yet another fuk up in a whole series of fuk ups to have this fictional assault take place as early as 12.45, if they had been falsely claiming that Louis arrived a whole 15 minutes later and had seemingly interrupted the murderer, putting him off his - er - stride.

[Michael W Richards]

Some people think that the earth is 6000 years old - they're wrong.

Some think the death is flat - they're wrong.

Some think the Queen is a shape shifting alien - they're wrong.

There are loads of them. A couple of witnesses incorrectly guessing a time are NOT proof of a conspiracy. Even by CT thinking this is weak beyond belief.

Youre mistaking me for your own theorizing. My theory is founded upon witness statements, pre-existing and immediate circumstances, physical evidence and well know reputations for anarchy. Yours is based on a Ripper interrupted..which you seem to feel justifies the fact that she wasnt ripped. Your witnesses have zero corroboration, are directly refuted, and your star witness isnt a factor into the question of How she died, which is the basis for the Inquest and aided greatly by knowledge of an incident involving her and a thug mionutes before her death. Despite what Caz thinks, that would be the prime witness account if believed.

Youve concluded who was guilty first, and Ive concluded that based on the evidence, the anarchist socialists jews were the only men around to do this. Ive also concluded that 4 people contradict Louis, and Morris, and Lave, all 3 have zero second hand verification...and they are the only 3 still onsite that I know of that are linked with the club by employment and/or residence.

As I said, I dont care what you believe..I care about having what I post besmirched by folks who dont have any idea what actually went on in Berner Street. I told you...make a timeline chart, put all the witnesses times on it in the appropriate slots...which is the slot they create with their statements, not one you figure should be based on a police whistle. Ive challenged one of the best Ripperologists here to explain why these times dont work..and he is also puzzled by them. Of course he hasnt decided who killed her yet.....which it appears makes tossing evidence really easy.

[Michael W Richards]

Do you even bother to read my posts, Michael? Or do you just have difficulty understanding my position? Do I really need to keep on repeating that I keep an open mind on who may have killed Stride and why?

You state that Schwartz said he saw her being assaulted 'just before' the fatal cut was inflicted - which is all over the place. Firstly you don't believe Schwartz saw anything of the kind, and secondly, if Schwartz was told to lie, to make it sound like she was killed immediately after that assault, by the same thug, it was yet another fuk up in a whole series of fuk ups to have this fictional assault take place as early as 12.45, if they had been falsely claiming that Louis arrived a whole 15 minutes later and had seemingly interrupted the murderer, putting him off his - er - stride.

If Schwartz knew that people were gathered by the body around 12:45...then his thug assaulting her around 12:45 outside the gates, and Antisemite no less, would be timely indeed to address the Inquest queestion. And go a long way to convincing the authorities that maybe it wasnt an anarchist in attendance...who were actually the only men there.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Ive challenged one of the best Ripperologists here to explain why these times dont work.

Is it Steve 'Elamarna' Blomer? 'cause having read his "Inside Bucks Row", he's the guy I'd go to. For factual, impartial views.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Youre mistaking me for your own theorizing. My theory is founded upon witness statements, pre-existing and immediate circumstances, physical evidence and well know reputations for anarchy. Yours is based on a Ripper interrupted..which you seem to feel justifies the fact that she wasnt ripped. Your witnesses have zero corroboration, are directly refuted, and your star witness isnt a factor into the question of How she died, which is the basis for the Inquest and aided greatly by knowledge of an incident involving her and a thug mionutes before her death. Despite what Caz thinks, that would be the prime witness account if believed.

Youve concluded who was guilty first, and Ive concluded that based on the evidence, the anarchist socialists jews were the only men around to do this. Ive also concluded that 4 people contradict Louis, and Morris, and Lave, all 3 have zero second hand verification...and they are the only 3 still onsite that I know of that are linked with the club by employment and/or residence.

As I said, I dont care what you believe..I care about having what I post besmirched by folks who dont have any idea what actually went on in Berner Street. I told you...make a timeline chart, put all the witnesses times on it in the appropriate slots...which is the slot they create with their statements, not one you figure should be based on a police whistle. Ive challenged one of the best Ripperologists here to explain why these times dont work..and he is also puzzled by them. Of course he hasnt decided who killed her yet.....which it appears makes tossing evidence really easy.

No response I see.

You said that Spooner never said that he got there 5 minutes before Lamb. I proved you wrong and you resort to your usual tactic.....ignore it and hope no one notices.

The witnesses that you’ve manipulated in to place aren’t ‘corroborated’ they were mistaken. Something a child could work out.

Having your posts besmirched!!! And there’s your problem Michael, you have a massively high opinion of yourself as you’ve shown many times when you’ve accused anyone that disagrees with you of idiocy.

Ill explain to you why the times don’t work Michael, it’s very simple, but it’s an answer which will get you sticking your fingers in your ears. Human beings. Human beings that make errors. Dirt poor people living in Whitechapel who couldn’t afford watches and clocks. Human beings who, when thinking back, misjudge a period of time. Human beings who have spent all evening in a club having a drink or three. Learn to accept that human beings are fallible.

Only a died-in-the-wool conspiracy theorist can’t accept genuine mistakes in timing. Only a died-in-the-wool, utterly biased conspiracist obsessed with promoting a theory at all costs. THIS IS WHY NO ONE AGREES WITH YOUR THEORY.

10 years of abject failure to convince a single human being that you are correct. Get the measure Michael. Give up. Your theory is dead....in fact it was never alive except as a fantasy created by you to bolster a theory. Theory first, then manufacture the evidence. Wrong way around Michael.

This is what your theory needs....... a goodbye.

[Michael W Richards]

Youve got some issues Herlock, no question, but I have no interest in enduring your skewed logic based on some kind of sympathetic idea for you.

You call everyone Conspiracy theorists even when they use the accepted data that you for some reason choose to neglect. Insulting me does nothing to address why you challenge the majority of witness times in favour of biased statements that have no support within any other objective independant witness account. You suggest Israel was believed despite the very obvious ommission of anything he said at the Inquest. You think people saying something to avoid trouble is preposterous despite the fact that people do so everyday, in every walk of life. You dismiss the clubs reputation before the event, and learn nothing from them attacking the same police you believe they would have been open and honest and forthcoming with, within months of the event...you ignore the fact that the originally scheduled speaker that night was cancelled due to security concerns from threats issued against the club, you disregard the very imporatnt flow of money from speaker roles there, or the money and live in accomodation afforded Louis and his wife for taking care of an active and open club. You ignore the fact that street women were being paid to keep an eye on clubs and people in the area. You ignore the fact that ONLY Jewish Socialists were anywhere near the murder scene when it happens. You ignore Stridess belief that she wouldnt be returning to her rooming house that night. Or her attention to her appearance and breath. You ignore Issac Kozebroskis remarks about when he went for help at at whos request. You ignore the fact that Louis provably did not arrive precisely at 1, which means he arrived just after 1...yet Eagle and Issac K and Lamb enter the passageway at that same time. You ignore the fact that a medical professional was summoned from bed just after 1, got dressed and made his way to the club to find many men already around the dying woman. Well before Blackwell at 1:16.

Do the math for god sakes, please. If Louis arrived after 1, how did Eagle, Issac and K arrive with Lamb at that same time? Just after 1. How does Louis discover a body after 1 and have the men sent for help arrive back at that same time? If there are challenges here for you I acquiese, but if your just being obstinate becasue you want to belive the minority of witnesses, and Inquest absent witness, and support some sort of interruption...for which there is ZERO evidence, so that you can have Jack be the killer...despite the fact that even if it was Jack he was also someone from that small group of Jewish socialists onsite at that time...the ONLY PEOPLE KNOWN TO BE THERE THAT LAST HALF HOUR. You suggest Louis went for help with Issac K after 1, even though you KNOW Issac K says differently. And 3 witnesses back his original discovery time...and none match Louis's. Lamb cannot arrivee with Eagle and Issac just after 1 when Louis must have been arriving at that time.

Ever considered Louis didnt actually find the body? Oh right..that would means some people lie, and we know anarchists who challenge law and authority wouldnt do that ever.

This is ridiculous, and dont bother posting another triumphant defeat of ANY argument that uses evidence instead of naivitee, discreditted witnesses, provably incorrect witnessses, and your blind belief. The only thing you do is show your ignorance...perhaps intentional to some extent. Ill allow some slack there.

If you really need hand holding....Louis arrived sometime between 12:35 and 12:45, men were sent out at that time, Issac was sent out alone, the police were brought there just after 1 by Eagle with Issac joing them on the way back. No-one else was there from 12:35 until just after 1 except for the anarchists, and Spooner.

No Ripper. No outside thug. Only Jewish Socialists attending an anarchist club.

I wont reply to more bs, if you can counter just 1 fact..we can discuss this further, if not, then stop tying and youll learn something. Hopefully. Maybe you could try and understand the dynamic a bit too. Otherwise, please just zip it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Youve got some issues Herlock, no question, but I have no interest in enduring your skewed logic based on some kind of sympathetic idea for you.

You call everyone Conspiracy theorists even when they use the accepted data that you for some reason choose to neglect. Insulting me does nothing to address why you challenge the majority of witness times in favour of biased statements that have no support within any other objective independant witness account. You suggest Israel was believed despite the very obvious ommission of anything he said at the Inquest. You think people saying something to avoid trouble is preposterous despite the fact that people do so everyday, in every walk of life. You dismiss the clubs reputation before the event, and learn nothing from them attacking the same police you believe they would have been open and honest and forthcoming with, within months of the event...you ignore the fact that the originally scheduled speaker that night was cancelled due to security concerns from threats issued against the club, you disregard the very imporatnt flow of money from speaker roles there, or the money and live in accomodation afforded Louis and his wife for taking care of an active and open club. You ignore the fact that street women were being paid to keep an eye on clubs and people in the area. You ignore the fact that ONLY Jewish Socialists were anywhere near the murder scene when it happens. You ignore Stridess belief that she wouldnt be returning to her rooming house that night. Or her attention to her appearance and breath. You ignore Issac Kozebroskis remarks about when he went for help at at whos request. You ignore the fact that Louis provably did not arrive precisely at 1, which means he arrived just after 1...yet Eagle and Issac K and Lamb enter the passageway at that same time. You ignore the fact that a medical professional was summoned from bed just after 1, got dressed and made his way to the club to find many men already around the dying woman. Well before Blackwell at 1:16.

Do the math for god sakes, please. If Louis arrived after 1, how did Eagle, Issac and K arrive with Lamb at that same time? Just after 1. How does Louis discover a body after 1 and have the men sent for help arrive back at that same time? If there are challenges here for you I acquiese, but if your just being obstinate becasue you want to belive the minority of witnesses, and Inquest absent witness, and support some sort of interruption...for which there is ZERO evidence, so that you can have Jack be the killer...despite the fact that even if it was Jack he was also someone from that small group of Jewish socialists onsite at that time...the ONLY PEOPLE KNOWN TO BE THERE THAT LAST HALF HOUR. You suggest Louis went for help with Issac K after 1, even though you KNOW Issac K says differently. And 3 witnesses back his original discovery time...and none match Louis's. Lamb cannot arrivee with Eagle and Issac just after 1 when Louis must have been arriving at that time.

Ever considered Louis didnt actually find the body? Oh right..that would means some people lie, and we know anarchists who challenge law and authority wouldnt do that ever.

This is ridiculous, and dont bother posting another triumphant defeat of ANY argument that uses evidence instead of naivitee, discreditted witnesses, provably incorrect witnessses, and your blind belief. The only thing you do is show your ignorance...perhaps intentional to some extent. Ill allow some slack there.

If you really need hand holding....Louis arrived sometime between 12:35 and 12:45, men were sent out at that time, Issac was sent out alone, the police were brought there just after 1 by Eagle with Issac joing them on the way back. No-one else was there from 12:35 until just after 1 except for the anarchists, and Spooner.

No Ripper. No outside thug. Only Jewish Socialists attending an anarchist club.

I wont reply to more bs, if you can counter just 1 fact..we can discuss this further, if not, then stop tying and youll learn something. Hopefully. Maybe you could try and understand the dynamic a bit too. Otherwise, please just zip it.

I won’t make another post on this thread. I can’t keep putting up with your contemptible, embarrassing drivel. You’re a disgrace to the subject.

You've done nothing but twist the facts; cherrypick evidence; ignore questions; manufacture non-exinstant issues and insult everyone that disagrees with you all to shoehorn your long discredited theory into place because you have to find an ‘alternative’ to Issendschmidt. You are utterly impervious to reality. Some of the points that you’ve made on here I wouldn’t have credited to a toddler. You’re ‘evidence of absence’ point remains the single most inane, childish piece of tosh I’ve heard in 35 years. Your babyish parroting of the word ‘precisely’ had been tiresome beyond words (no matter how many times it’s been explained to you.)

By the way

. No-one else was there from 12.35 until just after 1 except for the anarchists, Spooner

Remember this...

“I stood there about five minutes before a constable came.”

Spooner talking about Lamb. Bye bye 12.35.

Conveniently ignored by you. Then you said he didn’t say it. Then I posted this and you made no response. It’s called dishonesty.

Ill end with this. You keep accusing everyone else of stupidity. You keep stating that you’ve got it right.


WHY THEN MICHAEL, AFTER 10 YEARS OF RIPPEROLOGISTS, THEORISTS, RESEARCHERS AND WRITERS LOOKING INTO EVENTS AROUND BERNER STREET, HAS NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON STOOD UP AND SAID THAT THEY AGREE WITH YOUR THEORY. NOT ONE SINGLE BREATHING HUMAN BEING THINKS YOUR’E RIGHT. ONLY YOU AND YOUR EGO. SO CARRY ON WITH YOUR DISHONESTY. LISTEN TO YOURSELF BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER OR WILL EVER BE TAKEN IN BY YOUR FANTASY.

[caz]

If Schwartz knew that people were gathered by the body around 12:45...then his thug assaulting her around 12:45 outside the gates, and Antisemite no less, would be timely indeed to address the Inquest queestion. And go a long way to convincing the authorities that maybe it wasnt an anarchist in attendance...who were actually the only men there.

But I thought Schwartz was meant to be part of a conspiracy to push the murder and the discovery forward to 1am - 15 minutes after the assault he claimed to witness. It was generally accepted, in spite of your quartet of infallible witnesses, all putting Louis at the scene at or even before Schwartz put himself there [???], that Louis arrived at the yard when he said he did, around 1am, and it was also proposed that the killer may have been disturbed in the act by the pony and cart, causing him to flee.

[Michael W Richards]

But I thought Schwartz was meant to be part of a conspiracy to push the murder and the discovery forward to 1am - 15 minutes after the assault he claimed to witness. It was generally accepted, in spite of your quartet of infallible witnesses, all putting Louis at the scene at or even before Schwartz put himself there [???], that Louis arrived at the yard when he said he did, around 1am, and it was also proposed that the killer may have been disturbed in the act by the pony and cart, causing him to flee.

Actually no, I didnt suggest Israel had any intentional influence on a timeline, just that he did attempt to influence persceptions on where a killer may have come frpom. As Ive pointed out, no-one was seen on that street until Goldstein at around 12:55. That menas the killer must have been close, but out of sight...like being in the club with other like minded socialist anarchists. They were the most likely to still have been around. Schwartz gives us a man who yells an antisemtic remark...claiming he ccouldnt be sure who it was directed at. Like towards the Pipeman as "hey heres a Lipski, Red", or "get rid of the Lipski Red", or towards Schwartz himself, as an insult. The latter being emminently more probable as it not only adds someone not from the club to the deserted street, it makes the man almost certainly not a Jew.

The medical evidence suggests she may have been cut as early as 12:46, therefore this assailant would be very relevant in the question of How Liz Dies. His absence therefore can only be construed as a lack of belief in the story or elements of it.

The majority of witness accounts suggest a time of discovery, with Louis present....at around 12:40-12:45, one being someone close to Louis and the club. They match the time of discovery in the Arbeter Fraint, published following the murder, surely using the statements of the club attending, afforementioned witnesses.

Since the cart and pony were not heard until after 1am, and after Louis says he was already there, it was not Louis arriving. Lamb, Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski are returning to the club gates at that same time. Surely then they cannot be returning from a search that began before Louis arrived? If he did discover the body at all.

That you and Herlock miss the significance of club attendees themselves suggesting the 12:45ish discovery time is beyond me, but Ive no interest in going further with these facts with people who think this is a boxing match they have to win. The truth isnt always what you want it to be, sorry. The facts are far more compelling here, not some myths and blind faith. No-one else was seen in that area by the young couple...they would have mentioned it, or Fanny Mortimer at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:35 until just after 1am. Yet someone killed her, someone unseen. Someone from the club could have called her to the passageway, killed her, and slipped inside without any of that bieng seen from the street. 2 thugs and a struggling woman, plus a witness to that...all in the midlle of the deserted street, would not be missed by the young couple, or be unheard by Fanny if she happened to be inside...(she hears the boots and after 1am the cart and horse...you use those audible references all the time). They mean that she would have heard tussles and a shout of Lipski too...had it happened.

The Inquest was strange all round....no Israel, no BSM and no Pipeman, a Mary Malcolm, a question of Strides identity when it was already known, opening the proceedings with Wess.. who would have seen nothing relevant because he leaves before 12:35. Eagle stating he "couldnt be sure" a body wasnt there at 12:40. The times, that if all recalled correctly, cannot co-exist. The fact that Louis is insistent of his arrival time despite the fact we have Fanny at her door at that same time.

The evidence in overwhelming numbers suggests a kill time around 12:40-:45, the body being discovered right after the single cut, and no-one but the club lingering attendees and street resident anywhere is sight. Since there is no evidence that supports a theory of interrupetd activity by the killer, the single cut is the only intended wound. Making a serial abdominal mutilator twice over unlikely if not improbable.

[Michael W Richards]

Most of the problem with people reconciling facts here occurs when using Israel Schwartz and an arrival time by Louis of 1:02-:04 ish. He couldnt have arrived at 1, its provably incorrect by Fanny. And that arrival time is also disputed by many witnesses who saw him 15 to 20 minutes earlier than that.

Once you have a sound foundation, its much clearer.

[Michael W Richards]

Actually no, I didnt suggest Israel had any intentional influence on a timeline, just that he did attempt to influence perceptions on where a killer may have come from. As Ive pointed out, no-one was seen on that street until Goldstein at around 12:55. That means the killer must have been close, but out of sight...like being in the club with other like minded socialist anarchists. They were the most likely to still have been around. Schwartz gives us a man who yells an antisemtic remark...claiming he couldnt be sure who it was directed at. Like towards the Pipeman as "hey heres a Lipski, Red", or "get rid of the Lipski Red", or towards Schwartz himself, as an insult. The latter being emminently more probable as it not only adds someone not from the club to the deserted street, it makes the man almost certainly not a Jew.

The medical evidence suggests she may have been cut as early as 12:46, therefore this assailant would be very relevant in the question of How Liz Dies. His absence therefore can only be construed as a lack of belief in the story or elements of it.

The majority of witness accounts suggest a time of discovery, with Louis present....at around 12:40-12:45, one being someone close to Louis and the club. They match the time of discovery in the Arbeter Fraint, published following the murder, surely using the statements of the club attending, afforementioned witnesses.

Since the cart and pony were not heard until after 1am, and after Louis says he was already there, it was not Louis arriving. Lamb, Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski are returning to the club gates at that same time. Surely then they cannot be returning from a search that began before Louis arrived? If he did discover the body at all.

That you and Herlock miss the significance of club attendees themselves suggesting the 12:45ish discovery time is beyond me, but Ive no interest in going further with these facts with people who think this is a boxing match they have to win. The truth isnt always what you want it to be, sorry. The facts are far more compelling here, not some myths and blind faith. No-one else was seen in that area by the young couple...they would have mentioned it, or Fanny Mortimer at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:35 until just after 1am. Yet someone killed her, someone unseen. Someone from the club could have called her to the passageway, killed her, and slipped inside without any of that bieng seen from the street. 2 thugs and a struggling woman, plus a witness to that...all in the midlle of the deserted street, would not be missed by the young couple, or be unheard by Fanny if she happened to be inside...(she hears the boots and after 1am the cart and horse...you use those audible references all the time). They mean that she would have heard tussles and a shout of Lipski too...had it happened.

The Inquest was strange all round....no Israel, no BSM and no Pipeman, a Mary Malcolm, a question of Strides identity when it was already known, opening the proceedings with Wess.. who would have seen nothing relevant because he leaves before 12:35. Eagle stating he "couldnt be sure" a body wasnt there at 12:40. The times, that if all recalled correctly, cannot co-exist. The fact that Louis is insistent of his arrival time despite the fact we have Fanny at her door at that same time.

The evidence in overwhelming numbers suggests a kill time around 12:40-:45, the body being discovered right after the single cut, and no-one but the club lingering attendees and street resident anywhere is sight. Since there is no evidence that supports a theory of interrupted activity by the killer, the single cut is the only intended wound. Making a serial abdominal mutilator twice over unlikely if not improbable.

For some reason my spellchecking isnt working..so...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nope, I can’t walk away from such dishonesty.

Fanny Mortimer said to the EN (in a more detailed version of events) that she went on to her doorstep for 10 minutes after PC Smith passed at 12.45 (according to her although Smith said that he passed at 12.30-12.35) then she went back inside. She only came back out after she’d heard the cart and because she had heard the commotion at the yard after 1.00.

So your ‘sound foundation’ is yet another manipulation to add to the list.

[caz]

Schwartz gives us a man who yells an antisemtic remark...claiming he ccouldnt be sure who it was directed at. Like towards the Pipeman as "hey heres a Lipski, Red", or "get rid of the Lipski Red", or towards Schwartz himself, as an insult. The latter being emminently more probable as it not only adds someone not from the club to the deserted street, it makes the man almost certainly not a Jew.

So why did they go searching for a suspect named Lipski, if it was obvious to everyone at the time that Schwartz was the one being referred to as Lipski, by a Gentile thug who was manhandling Stride, some 15 minutes before the alarm was raised that this woman had been murdered?

Talk sense, Michael.

The majority of witness accounts suggest a time of discovery, with Louis present....at around 12:40-12:45, one being someone close to Louis and the club. They match the time of discovery in the Arbeter Fraint, published following the murder, surely using the statements of the club attending, afforementioned witnesses.

No, the Arbeter Fraint only assumed, arguably because of Schwartz's account, that the murder itself was committed at around 12.45, but the first awareness of the body in the yard was put at around 1am, when Louis raised the alarm. Two entirely separate events, Michael: the murder itself, followed by the discovery.

Again, you are not making any sense.

That you and Herlock miss the significance of club attendees themselves suggesting the 12:45ish discovery time is beyond me...

Well the authorities at the time certainly missed it, as did the Arbeter Fraint, and put the discovery 15 minutes later than all your infallible club attendees.

Once again, if you can argue that Fanny could not fail to have heard the Lipski incident at 12.45, and therefore it never happened, then I can most certainly argue that she'd have heard Louis's pony and cart had it arrived at the same time. We know she was able to hear a pony and cart just 15 minutes later, and went outside to find the commotion going on, so there was nothing much wrong with her ears when it came to pony hooves. What a lucky coincidence for Lucky Louis, that Fanny only heard the one pony and cart, just when Lucky Louis needed her to hear one.

The fact that Louis is insistent of his arrival time despite the fact we have Fanny at her door at that same time.

You want times to be exact when it suits your theory, but inexact when it doesn't. Humans and clocks didn't work like that in 1888, Michael.

If Louis arrived just a minute or two before the most reliable clock in the world struck one, and Fanny heard his pony and cart just 3 or 4 minutes after seeing Goldstein and locking up for the night, I see nothing amiss with their accounts. Shame on you for inventing a second pony and cart when the evidence for this is entirely absent, and flatly contradicted by Fanny's inability to hear your first pony and cart at or before 12.40.

Yes, the single cut may have been 'the only intended wound', but that tells you precisely nothing about who the killer was or wasn't. Why? Because Louis's arrival - at any time - would have put paid to any ideas the killer might otherwise have had, if he was still hanging around that yard. Whoever used his knife on Stride was a vicious murderer, but I don't believe he was mad enough to risk discovery by staying near her body a second longer than was necessary. He knew when not to have an audience.

If the single cut had been a problem for your conspirators, because they needed it to look like "another" murder by the 'abdominal mutilator', the quickest and most obvious solution would have been to limit the damage to the club and to themselves, by inflicting more damage on the body - a touch of abdominal mutilation, which would then have had everyone, including yourself in 2021, believing it was indeed "another" such murder.

[Michael W Richards]

sigh.....

So why did they go searching for a suspect named Lipski, if it was obvious to everyone at the time that Schwartz was the one being referred to as Lipski, by a Gentile thug who was manhandling Stride, some 15 minutes before the alarm was raised that this woman had been murdered?

Who said they looked for someone named Lipski for any length of time? Seems all the senior men knew of the street slur, and how it was commonly used. But of course you have know that all along, right?

Talk sense, Michael.

Please. Unfounded interruption theories, a non ripping Ripper, all the women were soliciting at the time...just of few of your nuggets.

No, the Arbeter Fraint only assumed, arguably because of Schwartz's account, that the murder itself was committed at around 12.45, but the first awareness of the body in the yard was put at around 1am, when Louis raised the alarm. Two entirely separate events, Michael: the murder itself, followed by the discovery.

Nonsense. You read into it whatever you like...but the majority of witnesses actually say the discovery was at around 12:40-12:45...including the Arbeter Fraint, how do you know a murder is committed unless you find a victim?

Again, you are not making any sense.

I do defer to your expertise in this area, being so afllicted for so long it seems.

Frankly your opinion, or Herlocks, of what makes sense to you is not at all relevant to me. When it directly contradicts known evidence, I dont have to bother proving you wrong...I can just re-post the actual evidence.

You both cannot make sesne of this evidece, so you draw on your belief system for guidance...Jack killed her, he must have slipped in there somehow and some way, and Diemshitz arrival after 1 interrupts him. Just before Eagle and Lamb arrive I suppose.

Its comical, and annoying as hell you keep repeating the same bs for arguments, and that I have to continually correct the way you present the "facts", which are really nothing more than guesses on your part.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You want times to be exact when it suits your theory, but inexact when it doesn't. Humans and clocks didn't work like that in 1888, Michael

Absolutely Caz. I recall poster Fishy118 finding it impossible to accept that most local inhabitants wouldn’t have owned watches or clocks but Michael is far too experienced to be excused this error. Even PC Lamb didn't own a watch and, although I don’t think he mentions it, I don’t think that PC Smith did either. And yet, in the recent past, we’ve had Michael insisting that Fanny Mortimer owned one based on no evidence at all and then he assumes that witnesses like Hoschberg (just as one example) must have been correct even when, in his statement, he uses ‘about,’ and ‘I should think.’

Not only does he assume that estimates were cold hard facts but he ignores the inconvenient repeatedly and then refuses point black to explain those omissions. Morris Eagle gets quoted regularly for some bizarre reason which Michael tends to justify my simply claiming “I think that he lied.” Well that’s proven then! Eagle said that he saw the body first at 1.00 as we all know. He was informed of this by Gilleman who, even more bizarrely Michael also uses as a witness to support his theory. He bases this on some kind of statement that he never produces. Eagle and Gilleman corroborate each other and there were other witness in the club who would also have corroborated this. They were pretty incompetent plotters if they went around blabbing that the body was discovered at 1.00 but of course none of this bothers Michael. He thinks that they lied so they’re dismissed. There’s zero evidence that they lied of course but so what....out they go...2 inconvenient witnesses sidelined.

Then of course we have Spooner. A witness that has Michael ducking under the settle with his fingers in his ears. How many times have I asked him why he considered his guessed time of 12.35 as gospel and yet his time of 5 minutes before Lamb gets completely ignored? At least 20 times I’d say. He finally referenced it in a recent post and what did he say? That Spooner never said that he’d been there 5 minutes before arrived!! I posted the quote from the Inquest and guess what? It was back to the silence.

We all know roughly what happened. We can’t lay it out in a timeline if we dumbly adhere strictly to times which are estimates. Every time has to have the benefit of a + or -. We all know this. Every witness statement has to be assessed and weighed not just cherrypicked to suit a theory. So Eagle and Gilleman should not be mentioned as witnesses that prove an earlier time of discovery because they show the opposite. They back up Diemschutz discovery time. And on the subject of Diemschutz (and dishonesty) Michael tries to make capital out of the fact that Diemschutz used the word ‘precisely’ as if this proves him to have been Walter Mitty. Have you ever heard anything so pathetic (apart from the ‘evidence of absence’ classic of course) FrankO explained this very easily. Diemschutz sees a clock strike 1.00. He knows that the journey from the clock to the yard took less than a minute. So what time would he have arrived at the yard? Yup 1.00. Not to Michael though. He holds Diemschutz to have been an liar because he couldn’t have got to the yard at exactly 1.00 but a few seconds after. Even if the clock had ticked over to 1.01 would anyone, even the strictest, nastiest interrogators of the Inquisition or the Gestapo have called Diemschutz a liar for this. In his attempt to shoehorn his theory Michael does exactly this.

So we know that Eagle and Gilleman confirm 1.00 + or -.
Spooner’s 5 minutes before Lamb gets him to the yard after 1.00. This is corroborated Brown hearing them shout for the police.
Fanny Mortimer hears a horse and cart at around 1.00 followed by a commotion at the yard. (Sound familiar?)
Hoschberg said that he got there “about” 12.45 “I should think.” But we know that he heard a police whistle and we know that Lamb blew one when he was in the yard. So we’re on solid ground in assuming that Hoschberg, with no watch or clock, was simply and honestly mistaken.
We know that Michael has a problem with Fanny not seeing Schwartz (even though we know that if Smith was more accurate than her with his timing then she was back inside the house when Schwartz passed. That doesn’t fit the script though. Also, it’s rather strange (but again very convenient for a conspiracist) that not seeing or hearing Schwartz is an issue but not seeing or hearing (nor anyone else for that matter) that devil Diemschutz arriving back at 12.35. Maybe he’d cunningly fitted his horse with rubber hooves?

Accept timing errors caused by lack of watches and clocks. Weigh up the statements. The conclusions are very, very obvious. Diemschutz discovered Stride’s body at 1.00. Everyone knows it.