If Schwartz Lied ...

[drstrange169]

>>Yes. It is a fact that it takes much longer than a few seconds just to walk from the Commercial Road to the gateway. <<

Instead of writing about "proper scholarship" it might pay you to do some. Please don't use the "f" word when you have no idea what you are talking about.
It DOES only take a few seconds to walk from Commercial Rd to the gateway. I've timed myself various at various speeds the slowest being 40 secs.

[FrankO]

Stating opinion as fact, Frank?

I don’t think so, Andrew. The statements of both Mortimer and Diemshutz fit with each other in that they don't seem to have seen each other, but if you think Mortimer only would have mentioned hearing a pony cart while she actually saw it entering the street too, then that’d be your call.

If yes, then we really need that 4 minute gap to be true. How fortunate that Louis said 'exactly one o'clock', and not 'about one o'clock'!

Nah, “about one o’clock” would actually have given him leeway if it turned out that he needed that for whatever reason, while “exactly one o’clock” would much less do so.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Caz,

I was wondering if you’d ever seen that scene in Father Ted where Ted is trying to explain to Dougal why the cows that are far away in the distance aren’t actually really small cows? I’m guessing that you know how he feels.

This seems to fit the bill nicely:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n_Jbk6gqRfo

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don’t think so, Andrew. The statements of both Mortimer and Diemshutz fit with each other in that they don't seem to have seen each other, but if you think Mortimer only would have mentioned hearing a pony cart while she actually saw it entering the street too, then that’d be your call.

We have no statement from Mortimer, to draw on. Only quotes to the press.
Just after 1am, Fanny went to the yard. Louis was there, supposedly back from searching for coppers.
The only way you might be able to force a 1am arrival of the pony & cart, is to assume Louis was lying about participating in the search.
However, you would still need Ayliffe hanging around after 1am, and an experienced PC on his beat, not knowing what the time was.
But don't let me stop you ...

Nah, “about one o’clock” would actually have given him leeway if it turned out that he needed that for whatever reason, while “exactly one o’clock” would much less do so.

Yeah, I guess we could leeway Louis to 1:04, but then there goes your carefully crafted timeline.

[FrankO]

We have no statement from Mortimer, to draw on. Only quotes to the press.

Man, you are picky. Anyway, however you want to call them, those are the ones that I was referring to, obviously.

Just after 1am, Fanny went to the yard. Louis was there, supposedly back from searching for coppers.
The only way you might be able to force a 1am arrival of the pony & cart, is to assume Louis was lying about participating in the search.

No, when you follow the official statements, there's no need to force anything. If, however, you want to believe the Arbeter Fraint's story, then you might arrive at the conclusion you've come to.

However, you would still need Ayliffe hanging around after 1am, and an experienced PC on his beat, not knowing what the time was.

Talking about an era in which people didn't have watches or cell phones to know the time all the time and in which the time on these devices are all quite in sync with each other, I have no problems with the a whole 3 minutes or so that he hung around, but if you want to picky about it, then go ahead.

Yeah, I guess we could leeway Louis to 1:04, but then there goes your carefully crafted timeline.

Thanks for the 'carefully', Andrew.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Say what you like. Fanny Mortimer is a corroborated witness.

I see you're flip-flopping again on that dubious report.
What are the original sources that that report was based on? Proper scholarship demands that that question at least be acknowledged.

You're also deliberately trying to mislead regarding my position on Smith.
Smith said he proceeded to Berner street at 1am. I accept this, and have quoted Smith many times.

Im flip-flopping on nothing. I’m simply reminding you that it exists and of the fact that you (and Michael) ignore it for very obvious reasons. How is Fanny Mortimer corroborated? If asked could she have proven that she was on her doorstep when she said that she was.

Actually this is a point. You doubt Schwartz because FM did see him. Well, no one saw FM on her doorstep so how about if I doubt that she was there when she said that she was? After all, Schwartz didn’t see her.

And on Smith, as you surely knew, I was talking about his previous visit to Berner Street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes. It is a fact that it takes much longer than a few seconds just to walk from the Commercial Road to the gateway. Lo and behold, a woman is already standing there! Did she arrive in a few seconds also - the same few seconds? Didn't you say you thought she was there waiting for someone?
Then there is the issue of someone being thrown down on the footway. Did Liz then just pick herself up, and run off stage?
At least Caz can see that the whole incident feels a bit theatrical.

It might feel theatrical if you describe it that way.

Stride is outside of the club (for whatever reason)…….BS Man walks along Berner Street with Schwartz behind him…….the incident occurs…….Schwartz flees the scene leaving BS Man there with Stride……..either BS Man takes Stride into the yard and kills her or BS Man leaves…….then either the killer arrives or Stride walks on and then bumps into the killer and they walk back and stop at the gates.

Is there anything about the above that couldn’t have happened? Is there anything about the above that could be described as remarkable or even unlikely.? I’d say no to both.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Don't you mean...? Behold, yet another version of The Marriott Defence
This seems to be another of your catch-all responses.

It’s a response to things that you repeatedly accuse me and others of. It’s the ‘catch-all’ tactic of the conspiracist.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Evening News: "Was the street quiet at the time?"

Fanny Mortimer: "Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

Fanny heard stuff, and Fanny saw people. There was no Schwartz incident. Israel Schwartz was a fake witness.
Wess 'knew' of the fake chase along Fairclough street. It is obvious that Schwartz had some connection to the club.

Laughable conspiracist nonsense.

Fanny didn’t see Schwartz because she wasn’t on her doorstep for the very short duration of the incident.

They pick a ‘witness’ that can’t even speak English - rubbish.

They don’t care that someone might have said that he wasn’t there - rubbish.

They miss the childishly obvious way of showing that the killer wasn’t Jewish (Schwartz saying that he had an Irish accent for eg rather than of having him shout ‘Lipski’) - rubbish.

And it’s so important that FM didn’t see Schwartz but it seems that it’s unimportant that she didn’t see Diemschutz arrive back earlier than he said - rubbish.

In short the suggestion of a cover-up is childish crap that should have been put to bed about 10 minutes after Michael first suggested it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. The only performance is the one that plays out in the minds of Ripperologists

And you stand apart of course as the maverick thinker. Yawn.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I had read up a little, but I also think first impressions can be valuable. They come without any accumulated baggage.
If I'd instead done a lot of reading before putting some initial thoughts down, I would probably have ended up in the abyss that you lot are in.
As it turns out, my intuitive sense that Diemschitz discovery story did not stack up, turns out to have been correct.

If you could switch off the ego you’d be able to assess the case fairly and without bias. Your whole ethos is to search out cover ups and conspiracies and when you can’t find them you invent them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

>>By the way Dusty, I’ll see you at Monday’s Lodge Meeting<<

Use the side entrance, Bruce Robinson's at the front door photographing everybody going in.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
We have no statement from Mortimer, to draw on. Only quotes to the press

Which you and Michael use very selectively of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. However, you would still need Ayliffe hanging around after 1am, and an experienced PC on his beat, not knowing what the time was.
But don't let me stop you .

Another issue, well two issues, are that apart from using times exactly…..which isn’t exactly an honest way of looking at events as everyone but you can see…..you simply can’t see people as human beings.

The clock strikes 1.00 and Ayliffe marches off immediately according to you. We need to know how he found out that it was 1.00? Lamb didn’t have a watch. Did Ayliffe? Did the police provide officers on point duty with watches? Somehow I doubt it. So they relied on public clocks or someone informing them of the time. So were the locations for point duty specifically selected to be near a clock? What if the owner of the clock decided to move it? Or perhaps Ayliffe asked a passer by at 1.00 am? How long would he have stood there until someone with a watch passed?

So we have two questions.

1. How did an officer on point duty find out that his shift was over and would this have been so accurate a method that the officer would certainly have been informed of the end of his shift at exactly the time of the end of his shift? (We could do with Monty (Neil Bell) for this question)

2. As a human being (and Ayliffe was one) how can you be sure that he didn’t stand chatting to someone until around 1.05 which meant that he was still there when Eagle arrived? We might also add, how do you know that he had started to walk back but had only got a few yards when Lamb first saw and heard Eagle. Then Lamb called Ayliffe back.


You can’t use Ayliffe to prop up your fantasies. Try consider human behaviour. And pleeease try and accept the issues on timing because it’s embarrassing to have to keep explaining that the vast majority of dirt-poor people didn’t own watches and clocks. I’m not making this up Andrew…..ask anyone….they’ll confirm it…..then again “they would say that wouldn’t they” because they;re all in on the establishment conspiracy.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It might feel theatrical if you describe it that way.

This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line.

Ironic

He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter.

Convenient

He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.

Suspicious

The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, ...

'Lucky'

... and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police.

Cobblers