If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In fact, the stretch from the yard, via Commercial Street to Grove Street is longer than that from the yard, through Fairclough Street, to Grove Street. The first stretch would have been some 245 meters, the latter some 145 meters. So, even adding a pause to pick up Spooner, the southern trip would still have taken less time than the northern route. We can say this with a fair bit of certainty, as it's quite clear from the evidence that no side streets were taken (they past them).

According to Lamb, the men approached him when he were between Batty and Christian streets, and walking toward Berner.

How far into Grove street did the search go ...

LD: As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me ...

He may not have actually met Spooner there, but did he go down Grove street at all?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He hears a commotion going on in the yard, and hears a whistle being blown more than once, but takes no notice for the reasons stated. So he doesn't actually see what is causing the commotion or who is blowing the whistle, but recognises it as a police whistle.

Clear enough?

What he perceived was a police whistle....although I know you tend to categorize something in a manner that fits with what you espouse.

No doubt you both read the quote, carefully.

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners-street says: "I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know if this is the case, but would it not be probable that the club members were also having a few pints after their meeting? That too would have an impact upon recall of events and estimations of timings, etc. Do we know for sure, one way or the other, if it was a dry club or not?

- Jeff

We can guess. London Evening News, Oct 1:

Eagle: In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think you’re being a bit harsh calling these lies.

I am, but isn't it a choice of truth or lie...?

So for a start I don’t accept the proposed reason for the cover-up. That these men’s first thought, in that moment of high stress, was that the Police might close down the club doesn’t wash. If they were that desperate why not wrap the corpse in a tarp and dump it elsewhere? It’s a complete non-starter; not even worth considering for a second IMO. Therefore Diemschutz had no reason to lie. And none of the other witnesses had and reason to lie (except perhaps for their 5 minutes of fame - which might to some extent apply to Fanny?) I genuinely see no mystery. Discrepancies yes, but no mystery.

[FrankO]

If Kozebrodski joined Eagle at the intersection of Berner street and Comm. Rd, then aren't the searches effectively sequential?

Correct, Andrew. I think they were indeed sequential, as a result of the following.

Diemshutz in the Illustrated Police News and Irish Times of 1 October:
"At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one somewhere in Commercial-road."
Kozebrodski in the Daily News/Evening Standard/Irish Times of same date:
"I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."
Eagle in the Daily News of 1 October:
"I heard Diemschitz calling for the police, and I ran into the Commercial-road."
Eagle in the Times of 2 October:
"When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!""

Who is Gigelmann?

Gilleman, Gidleman, quite possibly Gilyarovski, but not Gillen.

[FrankO]

According to Lamb, the men approached him when he were between Batty and Christian streets, and walking toward Berner.

I know. I think that Eagle just mistook the corner of Christian Street for that of Grove Street. So, my take is that the meeting took place between Batty & Christian, but close to the corner of Christian Street. The distance of the return trip would then still be some 380 meters...

How far into Grove street did the search go ...

LD: As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me ...

He may not have actually met Spooner there, but did he go down Grove street at all?

I think they may have turned either corner for some meters, but according to Spooner, it seems that they didn't:
"They ran as far as Grove-street, and then turned back."

[JeffHamm]

We can guess. London Evening News, Oct 1:

Eagle: In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing.

Yah, that's what I was thinking, they were all singing songs, and so forth, which made me suspect there were a few arms bent that night, but I've never seen it stated anywhere that there was beer or booze available at the club. I would not be surprised, but if they were into their cups a bit, which I suspect they were, then the margin of error will rather expand for time estimations and so forth. Morning can appear without warning for those too busy with beer to monitor the time.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

. That seems reasonable, but remember that Frank pointed out that Eagle's address, 4 New Road, was pretty close to the Commercial road/Grove street fixed point station.

I meant to respond to this point when Frank mentioned it but I forgot. Yes it certainly adds doubt to the suggestion that Eagle might have first turned left into Commercial Road to look for a Police Officer as he’d have been aware of the Fixed Point Officer’s location. Surely he’d have headed straight for him unless it was just a case of the stress of the situation?

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Did Mr Harris hear the first whistle, or the second?

He certainly couldn’t have heard the one that Lamb sounded from the yard.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Who is Gigelmann?

Surely Gilleman?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Gilleman, Gidleman, quite possibly Gilyarovski, but not Gillen

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yah, that's what I was thinking, they were all singing songs, and so forth, which made me suspect there were a few arms bent that night, but I've never seen it stated anywhere that there was beer or booze available at the club. I would not be surprised, but if they were into their cups a bit, which I suspect they were, then the margin of error will rather expand for time estimations and so forth. Morning can appear without warning for those too busy with beer to monitor the time.

- Jeff

I mentioned drinking in a post somewhere during these discussions but I was just assuming that alcohol was served in a ‘club.’ Obviously this wasn’t the Atheneum with waiters bringing over glasses of vintage brandy while members perused The Times and puffed on a cigar.

It would be useful if we could find out for a fact if the Club served alcohol though. It wouldn’t prove anything of course but it would give us a possible contributing factor to any discrepancies (when combined to the stress of the situation and the vagaries of memory.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some interesting stuff about Morris Eagle from Roger P (and others) over on JTRForums.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-witnesses-evidence/578478-morris-eagle#post578634

[FrankO]

Some interesting stuff about Morris Eagle from Roger P (and others) over on JTRForums.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-witnesses-evidence/578478-morris-eagle#post578634

Thanks for sharing, Mike (and, of course, Roger).

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Correct, Andrew. I think they were indeed sequential, as a result of the following.

Diemshutz in the Illustrated Police News and Irish Times of 1 October:
"At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one somewhere in Commercial-road."
Kozebrodski in the Daily News/Evening Standard/Irish Times of same date:
"I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."
Eagle in the Daily News of 1 October:
"I heard Diemschitz calling for the police, and I ran into the Commercial-road."
Eagle in the Times of 2 October:
"When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!""

Eagle in the Times of 2 October:

I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. ... Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police.

So let's put it together. The search parties seem to have been:

Grove Street: Diemschitz & Jacobs
Comm. Road: Eagle & Kozebrodski

So who is Jacobs?

Or maybe it was:

Grove Street: Diemschitz & Isaacs
Comm. Road: Eagle & Jacobs

I get the feeling Eagle was a little confused - both at the time, and when recalling events.
Eagle had been singing, and having a rare old time. Diemschitz had come from work. I think the second list is probably the correct one.
So perhaps this would have been more accurate ...

When I got outside I saw Isaacs and Diemschitz going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street ...

Another member, named Isaac Jacobs, was with me at the time.