If Schwartz Lied ...

[c.d.]

Thank you, Caz.

Swanson held the title of Chief Inspector at Scotland Yard in 1888. He knew what the streets were like in Whitechapel. Since he allowed for another killer other than the B.S. man, he was in effect saying that what Schwartz saw could simply have been a little street hassle. No one is required to agree with him but I see no reason to dismiss his report simply because they consider a second man as her killer unlikely.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Well not exactly Frank.Although Schwartz does say that,could it have been in exchange for something Stride said? It is very hard to remember an incident in detail,and what happened appears to have caught Schwartz by surprise,and to have panicked him (Schwartz)to a point of wanting to get away as quickly as possible.

He had all day to come up with his story Harry, so dont give him too much leeway. And of course....his story is not relevant to the Inquest at all..in any shape or fashion. Which, by the content, it would have to have been if believed. But,... all you "open minded" Schwartzites onward....

[Darryl Kenyon]

. I do recall mention that someone (Paul Begg I think?) may have found some indication that Pipeman had been identified and cleared of involvement, but I haven't read or seen the specifics on that so don't know on what basis that claim is made?
- Jeff

Star Report - They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts. If every man should be arrested who was known to have been seen in company with an abandoned woman in that locality on last Saturday night, the police-stations would not hold them.

Paul suggests in his book JTR The Facts that the other source could well have been Pipeman. Plus there is a letter from Warren 6 Oct which I believe Paul suggests that the killer did not have an accomplice IE Did Pipeman come forward and exonerate himself.
Regards

[Michael W Richards]

Star Report - They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts. If every man should be arrested who was known to have been seen in company with an abandoned woman in that locality on last Saturday night, the police-stations would not hold them.

Paul suggests in his book JTR The Facts that the other source could well have been Pipeman. Plus there is a letter from Warren 6 Oct which I believe Paul suggests that the killer did not have an accomplice IE Did Pipeman come forward and exonerate himself.
Regards

Does that first line not indicate that 2 sources were used to obtain descriptions?

[JeffHamm]

Does that first line not indicate that 2 sources were used to obtain descriptions?

Hi Michael,

Reads to me like there's two sources, each providing an independent description. Hard to interpret without the context of the rest of the article though. Will try and find the Star issue where this comes from though.

- Jeff

[rjpalmer]

Paul suggests in his book JTR The Facts that the other source could well have been Pipeman. Plus there is a letter from Warren 6 Oct which I believe Paul suggests that the killer did not have an accomplice IE Did Pipeman come forward and exonerate himself.
Regards

Hard to accept, considering that Swanson appears to be entirely oblivious to the pipe smoker's identity when he writes at length to the Home Office about these events on Oct. 19th

[harry]

While his (Schwartz)story may not be relevant to one source,Michael,it was of interest to the investigating police officers.While there is no other identified witness to what Schwartz claims, his testimony should not be dismissed on those grounds.There was no other,as far as is known,witness to what Brown observed.Do we dismiss his evidence also?

[Sunny Delight]

Well, even if she's lowered to the ground, that sounds like she's got more time to fight back, grab at him, etc, making holding the cachous even less probable. I can't think of how her killer gets her to the ground, as she was found, without her dropping them that is any less incredible than her holding on to them through the incident with B.S. For all we know, her killer put them in her hand after he killed her, which would constitute posing (though I don't really think that happened to be honest). Furthermore, Schwartz doesn't say he saw B.S. bring out a knife, so for all we know, Stride gets up again, and checks her things, bringing out the cachous, at which point B.S. backs her into the alley and attacks her again, this time with a knife as well. What I'm getting at, though, is that when she was killed, it does look like she was on the ground (muddied left side, blood draining right there, etc), and the slower that happens the more likely she'll use her hands and drop the cachous, etc. but she didn't, drop them. So, given she didn't drop them, why can't it be B.S. doing the attacking? I don't see why it's impossible for her to hold them if B.S. puts her to the ground but not if someone else does? That doesn't make any sense to me. Schwartz's description, like any eye witnesses, might be off on a few points, as in she may have fell further into the alley than it sounds, and she was killed right there. Even if not by B.S., we're still left with something like happening only by "not B.S." and yet she's holding them.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult or snarky here, I truly just don't understand how changing B.S. to another unknown attacker suddenly makes the cachous "ok"? All we know is that she's holding them, and yet, logically shouldn't be. So either my unlikely posing example above is more probable than I think, or it's just one of those odd things that happened and she held them throughout her attack. If the latter is the case then it doesn't mean we have to rule out B.S. (mind you, neither does the posing idea rule out B.S., so I'm still genuinely at a loss here).

- Jeff

Great post Jeff. I don't think we will ever work out why she still had the sweets in her hand but as you say very importantly- she ended up on the ground somehow so no matter who it was attacked her it is an anomaly. To be my mind it does not rule B.S man at all. Exactly why B.S man was physically violent with Stride so quickly after stopping with her is also unclear. It seems rather odd and different from JTR other attacks where he is witnessed conversing with the victim shortly before they were killed. But something that struck me and I am slightly new to the case but James Brown heard a woman say to a man 'not tonight, some other night' as he went to the Chandler's shop at 12:45am. Was this Stride maybe with B.S man. I don't know but was thinking of a scenario where Stride rejects B.S man as Brown passes. She then walks back to Dutfield's yard and B.S man walks up Berner Street before his emotions overtake him. He turns back and at this moment Schwartz turns into Berner Street and sees B.S man in front of him( I can't understand how Schwartz doesn't see B
S man before turning into the street unless B.S man was already on it as described) who almost immediately is physical with Stride and he throws her to the floor. As she is down there gathering herself he grabs her scarf and strangles her and then cuts her throat before fleeing. Seen by a few witnesses, after he cuts Stride's throat his situational awareness spooks him into getting away as soon as possible. Fanny Mortimer hears him going past her house.

Is a scenario like this even possible? I ask you because I think your posts are very informative. Thanks.

[caz]

He had all day to come up with his story Harry, so dont give him too much leeway. And of course....his story is not relevant to the Inquest at all..in any shape or fashion. Which, by the content, it would have to have been if believed. But,... all you "open minded" Schwartzites onward....

I think you meant to say that he had all day to come up with a story that would protect the club by deflecting the blame, unfairly but squarely, onto a non-Jewish killer, but because his English wasn't up to the task of putting the story across, it was so ambiguous and open to interpretation that it couldn't help with the question of who said what to whom, or whether the incident had any bearing at all on how and when Stride died.

You're welcome.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Great post Jeff. I don't think we will ever work out why she still had the sweets in her hand but as you say very importantly- she ended up on the ground somehow so no matter who it was attacked her it is an anomaly. To be my mind it does not rule B.S man at all. Exactly why B.S man was physically violent with Stride so quickly after stopping with her is also unclear. It seems rather odd and different from JTR other attacks where he is witnessed conversing with the victim shortly before they were killed. But something that struck me and I am slightly new to the case but James Brown heard a woman say to a man 'not tonight, some other night' as he went to the Chandler's shop at 12:45am. Was this Stride maybe with B.S man. I don't know but was thinking of a scenario where Stride rejects B.S man as Brown passes. She then walks back to Dutfield's yard and B.S man walks up Berner Street before his emotions overtake him. He turns back and at this moment Schwartz turns into Berner Street and sees B.S man in front of him( I can't understand how Schwartz doesn't see B
S man before turning into the street unless B.S man was already on it as described) who almost immediately is physical with Stride and he throws her to the floor. As she is down there gathering herself he grabs her scarf and strangles her and then cuts her throat before fleeing. Seen by a few witnesses, after he cuts Stride's throat his situational awareness spooks him into getting away as soon as possible. Fanny Mortimer hears him going past her house.

Is a scenario like this even possible? I ask you because I think your posts are very informative. Thanks.

Hi Sunny,

I know you addressed this to Jeff, but I have to say your scenario is very much how I could see events playing out, if BS man did kill Stride, ripper or not.

It would also explain the lack of mutilation if this was the ripper. If she had rejected his advances, after he'd seen her canoodling with another man or men, he may have been determined not to let the strumpet get away with it. She headed for Dutfield's Yard, and what she perceived as sanctuary, but his blood was up. Bad location for mutilation in any case, and too many pesky witnesses about - confirmed by Louis and his pony cart putting the tin hat on it, if the killer had not run off by then.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

But this was Whitechapel in 1888, and women out alone at night, seen associating with men, or perceived to be soliciting, as Stride may well have been perceived, were particularly vulnerable to being accosted, insulted, assaulted and generally abused. The extremely rare factor was the active serial killer in the area that very night, who targeted women like Stride for much more than a spot of common assault. This killer could have been following her, or watching her from a distance, and homed in shortly after seeing her being abused, in which case it would have been no coincidence, but more a case of cause and effect. I doubt Stride was unaccustomed to being on the receiving end of a bit of rough treatment on a Saturday night, but she wouldn't have been expecting an opportunist serial predator to be waiting in the wings. The added advantage for Jack would have been that the police would be looking for Stride's abuser, thanks to Schwartz witnessing this, but running off and missing the main event.

I know I bang on about the murder of Sally Anne Bowman in Croydon in 2005, but here was an example of a victim having a ding-dong with her ex boyfriend, and then being murdered seconds after he drove off, by a complete stranger - the murderer and serial rapist, Mark Dixie - who had been watching and just waiting for his opportunity to pounce, before Sally Anne could reach her front door. It's hardly rare to see couples arguing after a night out, and her ex was naturally the first to be suspected of her murder. Dixie could have taken advantage of this if the ex had not been cleared by the DNA evidence.

Love,

Caz
X

its possible but still highly unlikely. and again its inventing a phantom killer, when we have a plausible ripper suspect in front of our noses.

and i doubt the ripper would have wasted much time following a woman who was already engaged with a man/ men like stride was that night. he avoided men like the plague.

edited as i was also going to add that no one else said another man was around... but there was pipeman. mayne he was the ripper who helped her after and gave her the cashoo. although he seems a bit tall from other decriptions, and of course i always go back to the peaked cap man as in bs man. need to mull it.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Sunny,

I know you addressed this to Jeff, but I have to say your scenario is very much how I could see events playing out, if BS man did kill Stride, ripper or not.

It would also explain the lack of mutilation if this was the ripper. If she had rejected his advances, after he'd seen her canoodling with another man or men, he may have been determined not to let the strumpet get away with it. She headed for Dutfield's Yard, and what she perceived as sanctuary, but his blood was up. Bad location for mutilation in any case, and too many pesky witnesses about - confirmed by Louis and his pony cart putting the tin hat on it, if the killer had not run off by then.

Love,

Caz
X

ive always favored a similar scenario, but i dont think brown saw the stride couple. i think marshall did, but what he heard is also concerning. i think bs man/ ripper was having a hard time finagling her into a dark corner, got frustrated and left her, only to shortly come back to her and kill her....schwartz enters the scene as bs man is returning.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

I know you addressed this to Jeff, but I have to say your scenario is very much how I could see events playing out, if BS man did kill Stride, ripper or not.

It would also explain the lack of mutilation if this was the ripper. If she had rejected his advances, after he'd seen her canoodling with another man or men, he may have been determined not to let the strumpet get away with it. She headed for Dutfield's Yard, and what she perceived as sanctuary, but his blood was up. Bad location for mutilation in any case, and too many pesky witnesses about - confirmed by Louis and his pony cart putting the tin hat on it, if the killer had not run off by then.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz. Thanks for the reply. It was just a scenario I thought may be a possibility. Obviously we will never know now but I suppose what I was getting at was is there anything to disprove such a notion? For instance does the description of the man James Brown saw differ much from Schwartz or Lawende? Do the timings match? Brown was almost certain it was Stride he had seen so if he was correct how does that begin to change our understanding of what happened? In particular the lack of mutilation. There are other things that make me wonder too. Morris Eagle returned 'about' twenty to one. I wasn't so much interested in the fact Stride was not lying there dead but rather she was not seen at all. So where was she? Eagle thought he probably did she people on Berner Street but definitely not the yard or its entrance. And he felt if he had seen a man and a woman he would have remembered.

Fanny Mortimer says she saw a couple 20 yards away who had been in the vicinity but that they had heard nothing. It is often assumed this must be James Brown's couple and that for me was the most likely scenario but what if it was Stride and B.S man. Mortimer was likely at her door from 12:45 or shorly after until 12:55. This is complicated but if B.S man was not the Ripper and JTR approached Stride afterwards the timing is very short. But one thing did occur to me as well(sorry Caz I am just throwing possibilities around). What if the measured footsteps Mortimer heard were not as always has been assumed a man walking away from Dutfield's yard and was in fact someone walking towards Dutfield's yard? Mortimee had heard this at roughly 12:45. But what if by this stage B.S man had fled- he wasn't the Ripper but just a thug who had given aggro. JTR comes along after 12:45( say 12:48)and he and Stride converse in the yard beyond the glare of the street. From other encounters it appears the Ripper would talk to his victims first and make them feel at ease. He strangles Stride with her scarf and just as he is about to mutilate Leon Goldsten passes within feet at the other side of the road. He looks at the club which spooks the killer. Fanny Mortimer sees Goldstein then at 12:56 she closes the door. The killer then escapes.

[Sunny Delight]

Sorry scrub what I have written above. Don't know how to delete and not even sure it makes any sense now!!!

[JeffHamm]

Great post Jeff. I don't think we will ever work out why she still had the sweets in her hand but as you say very importantly- she ended up on the ground somehow so no matter who it was attacked her it is an anomaly. To be my mind it does not rule B.S man at all. Exactly why B.S man was physically violent with Stride so quickly after stopping with her is also unclear. It seems rather odd and different from JTR other attacks where he is witnessed conversing with the victim shortly before they were killed. But something that struck me and I am slightly new to the case but James Brown heard a woman say to a man 'not tonight, some other night' as he went to the Chandler's shop at 12:45am. Was this Stride maybe with B.S man. I don't know but was thinking of a scenario where Stride rejects B.S man as Brown passes. She then walks back to Dutfield's yard and B.S man walks up Berner Street before his emotions overtake him. He turns back and at this moment Schwartz turns into Berner Street and sees B.S man in front of him( I can't understand how Schwartz doesn't see B
S man before turning into the street unless B.S man was already on it as described) who almost immediately is physical with Stride and he throws her to the floor. As she is down there gathering herself he grabs her scarf and strangles her and then cuts her throat before fleeing. Seen by a few witnesses, after he cuts Stride's throat his situational awareness spooks him into getting away as soon as possible. Fanny Mortimer hears him going past her house.

Is a scenario like this even possible? I ask you because I think your posts are very informative. Thanks.

Hi Sunny Delight,

I see others have already provided you with feedback, but since you addressed the question to me, I'll toss out my thoughts for what they're worth. first, I don't have my books with me at the moment to check up on some details, but at first blush I think your suggestion sounds plausible. I would want to double check a few things (reliability of the various sightings; for example, how sure are we that Brown sees Stride? If yes, then how credible is the idea that the man seen at that time could be Schwartz's B.S.? and that sort of thing.

There are a number of statements and reports that stem from the Stride case, so there will be contradictions in the stated times. Never forget that eye witness accounts are often quite rough estimates, and some people can be way off the mark. That doesn't mean they are deliberately lying, rather, they're just unfortunately mistaken. Some will be more reliable (i.e. someone with a watch will be more reliable about the time than someone who is just estimating the time) and some will be less.

Anyway, your idea sounds plausible, and nothing jumps out at me as problematic. I think it would be worth your time to sketch out your idea, then look at the evidence (testimonies, descriptions, etc), to see if you can disprove it. If you can, you're done, if you can't, you've got a decent idea that holds up to the evidence. Note, if you find you can disprove your idea try not to give in to the temptation to explain away the evidence and remember that it is the evidence that is used to evaluate the idea not the other way around.

- Jeff