If Schwartz Lied ...

[Observer]

absolutely could still have been hanging onto the cashoo. modern forensics have found violently murdered people and people in car accidents clutching something in there hands.cashoo is red herring.

BS man also fits other witness descriptions that night including at mitre square.
its all in the peaked cap.

Not a chance. How many of those violently murdered people, or people in car accidents been thrown down onto the ground, and then dragged backwards for three yards? If Stride had been holding the cachous, and thrown forward onto the ground, first thing she would have done is opened her hands, it's a natural reaction.

Also, a peaked cap determines that BS man, and the Lawende suspect are the same man?

You're clutching at straws on that one I'm afraid.

[Observer]

To me, this all indicates a little street hassle and not a murder.

Agreed.

[c.d.]

Not a chance. How many of those violently murdered people, or people in car accidents been thrown down onto the ground, and then dragged backwards for three yards? If Stride had been holding the cachous, and thrown forward onto the ground, first thing she would have done is opened her hands, it's a natural reaction. Also, a peaked cap determines that BS man, and the Lawende suspect are the same man? You're clutching at straws on that one I'm afraid.

It is certainly possible that Stride could have held on to the cachous throughout her ordeal with the BS man including being dragged to her death. It is also possible that she could have held on to them even if she had been given the dreaded Samoan Drop by Hulk Hogan from atop London Bridge. But citing instances where such things have happened are only pointing out their rarity. While possible, it is much more probable that the cachous would have ripped and scattered. I see too many red flags in the BS man as Stride's killer scenario with the cachous only being one of them.

c.d.

[Observer]

It is certainly possible that Stride could have held on to the cachous throughout her ordeal with the BS man including being dragged to her death. It is also possible that she could have held on to them even if she had been given the dreaded Samoan Drop by Hulk Hogan from atop London Bridge. But citing instances where such things have happened are only pointing out their rarity. While possible, it is much more probable that the cachous would have ripped and scattered. I see too many red flags in the BS man as Stride's killer scenario with the cachous only being one of them.

c.d.

We are but amateur slueths c.d. armchair detectives, this is what Dr Philips deduced, a man who took part in the investigation.

Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
The Foreman: Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted? - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

Of course, I'll admit there is the faintest of faint chances she held onto the cachous whilst being assaulted, but I very very much doubt it.

It had been raining that night, and considering that Stride had mud on her person, the entrance to the yard would have been muddy. It's a pity there is no mention of any signs of a struggle being apparent, by any marks made during the so called scuffle, when BS man allegedly dragged Stride into the yard. On second thoughts though, any such marks would most likely have been obliterated, by the amount of people coming and going during the time between the discovery and the next day when it would have been light enough to observe them

[c.d.]

Agreed, Observer. Probability is the best we can do.

c.d.

[Losmandris]

I think the interaction between BS man and stride is everything here. If it was just a push and a bit of a kerfuffle then I think it and the chances of BS man being the ripper can be dismissed. If it was more violent, then I think it warrants far more significance. The fact that the police at the time did not make such a big deal of it and some of the evidence from the post-mortem would seem at least to show stride was killed in the yard makes me think, on the balance of probability that the former is more likely and this was no more than some street hassle (albeit with Stride, understandably so, adding some theatrics for effect, possibly for the benefit of pipeman and Schwartz).

If this is in fact the case, then where in the hell does JtR then appear from? The knight in shining armour to help stride up, offer her some cachous, have a bit of chat to lure her into the yard. This possibly fits more with the MO of the other murders but where does he appear from and does he have to the time to do this? Those are big asks and there doesn't seem to much in terms of evidence to explain what happens between stride being pushed over and then ending up dead in the yard. The BS man as the ripper neatly ties things up. It would be great if that were it but as I talk about above there are a few too many inconsistencies for me.

If we take the incident with BS man as just street hassle, does someone want to have a try at explaining what happens next i.e. when BS man, Schwartz and pipeman leave the scene?

[JeffHamm]

If we are ruling out B.S. as her killer because Stride would have dropped the Cachous when B.S. threw her to the ground, why did she not drop them when she was thrown to the ground by her killer (as the blood evidence indicates her throat was cut while she was on the ground)? I know it's odd she's holding them, but in the end, she was put to the ground and killed, and yet was found still holding them. Why can unknown assailant throw her to the ground without her dropping them but B.S. can't? I think I'm just missing part of the argument but I can't for the life of me figure out what it is?

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

Do we know for certain that she was thrown to the ground by her killer or was she lowered to the ground? (I am talking her killer not BS man).

There are instances of people clutching things in death. With respect to holding on to the cachous with the BS man they had to survive Stride being thrown to the ground and pushing herself back up and most importantly fighting off the BS man if she was dragged.

c.d.

[Observer]

It's all yours c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

Do we know for certain that she was thrown to the ground by her killer or was she lowered to the ground? (I am talking her killer not BS man).

There are instances of people clutching things in death. With respect to holding on to the cachous with the BS man they had to survive Stride being thrown to the ground and pushing herself back up and most importantly fighting off the BS man if she was dragged.

c.d.

Well, even if she's lowered to the ground, that sounds like she's got more time to fight back, grab at him, etc, making holding the cachous even less probable. I can't think of how her killer gets her to the ground, as she was found, without her dropping them that is any less incredible than her holding on to them through the incident with B.S. For all we know, her killer put them in her hand after he killed her, which would constitute posing (though I don't really think that happened to be honest). Furthermore, Schwartz doesn't say he saw B.S. bring out a knife, so for all we know, Stride gets up again, and checks her things, bringing out the cachous, at which point B.S. backs her into the alley and attacks her again, this time with a knife as well. What I'm getting at, though, is that when she was killed, it does look like she was on the ground (muddied left side, blood draining right there, etc), and the slower that happens the more likely she'll use her hands and drop the cachous, etc. but she didn't, drop them. So, given she didn't drop them, why can't it be B.S. doing the attacking? I don't see why it's impossible for her to hold them if B.S. puts her to the ground but not if someone else does? That doesn't make any sense to me. Schwartz's description, like any eye witnesses, might be off on a few points, as in she may have fell further into the alley than it sounds, and she was killed right there. Even if not by B.S., we're still left with something like happening only by "not B.S." and yet she's holding them.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult or snarky here, I truly just don't understand how changing B.S. to another unknown attacker suddenly makes the cachous "ok"? All we know is that she's holding them, and yet, logically shouldn't be. So either my unlikely posing example above is more probable than I think, or it's just one of those odd things that happened and she held them throughout her attack. If the latter is the case then it doesn't mean we have to rule out B.S. (mind you, neither does the posing idea rule out B.S., so I'm still genuinely at a loss here).

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

Sorry, not trying to duck all your questions but as President Obama so famously said "this is above my pay grade."

I think the Ripper cut her throat as she was standing up and she was caught completely off guard which would be completely different from the BS man scenario where she most likely would have been attempting to fight off the BS man if she were being dragged. So with the Ripper she was essentially dead at that point for all intents and purposes. Probably held his hand over her mouth and cradled her body as he lowered it to the ground. Probably gently done so as not to make noise. She might have clutched the cachous in a type of spasm sometimes seen in those who are dying.

I know that is brief but I think the key is being caught off guard with the Ripper as opposed to the BS man.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Well, even if she's lowered to the ground, that sounds like she's got more time to fight back, grab at him, etc, making holding the cachous even less probable. I can't think of how her killer gets her to the ground, as she was found, without her dropping them that is any less incredible than her holding on to them through the incident with B.S. For all we know, her killer put them in her hand after he killed her, which would constitute posing (though I don't really think that happened to be honest). Furthermore, Schwartz doesn't say he saw B.S. bring out a knife, so for all we know, Stride gets up again, and checks her things, bringing out the cachous, at which point B.S. backs her into the alley and attacks her again, this time with a knife as well. What I'm getting at, though, is that when she was killed, it does look like she was on the ground (muddied left side, blood draining right there, etc), and the slower that happens the more likely she'll use her hands and drop the cachous, etc. but she didn't, drop them. So, given she didn't drop them, why can't it be B.S. doing the attacking? I don't see why it's impossible for her to hold them if B.S. puts her to the ground but not if someone else does? That doesn't make any sense to me. Schwartz's description, like any eye witnesses, might be off on a few points, as in she may have fell further into the alley than it sounds, and she was killed right there. Even if not by B.S., we're still left with something like happening only by "not B.S." and yet she's holding them.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult or snarky here, I truly just don't understand how changing B.S. to another unknown attacker suddenly makes the cachous "ok"? All we know is that she's holding them, and yet, logically shouldn't be. So either my unlikely posing example above is more probable than I think, or it's just one of those odd things that happened and she held them throughout her attack. If the latter is the case then it doesn't mean we have to rule out B.S. (mind you, neither does the posing idea rule out B.S., so I'm still genuinely at a loss here).

- Jeff

exactly jeff. whether its bs man or someone else she is still violently killed and still clutching the cashoo. so why invent a phantom ripper? many police ive talked to have said its very rare that someone is assaulted and then shortly after murdered by an unconnected killer.
to rule out bs man because she is holding the cashoo is ludicrous on the face of it.
also, her scarf was pulled tight, so there is a sign of a struggle ie her clothes.

i could envision a scenario where bs man assaults her, is seen by schwartz, she scampers into the yard toward the voices and perceived help, only to be caught by bs man, maybe grabbed by the scarf and killed.

or she actually has her throat cut during the initial bs man assault and again runs into the yard, bs man leaves, and she expires into the yard.

in bothe these scenarios shes holding the cashoo before the attack, but there are others where she takes them out after the initial assault.

perhaps at some time after her throat is cut she instinctively searches for something to stem the blood and pulls out the cashoo then, only to expire in the yard.

or after the scuffle things settle down, he apologizes and they go into the yard for a quicky and she takes out the casho then, and then bs man kills her.

there are any number of scenarios where she has the cashoo in hand and bs man is her killer.

the cashoo is a red herring.

[Abby Normal]

Not a chance. How many of those violently murdered people, or people in car accidents been thrown down onto the ground, and then dragged backwards for three yards? If Stride had been holding the cachous, and thrown forward onto the ground, first thing she would have done is opened her hands, it's a natural reaction.

Also, a peaked cap determines that BS man, and the Lawende suspect are the same man?

You're clutching at straws on that one I'm afraid.

clutching at straws my ass. i have many family members in law enforcement that we have discussed this and i can assure you, you are totally wrong on all your points. ive seen the quality of many of your arguments before and im afraid its not worth discussing with you any more.

[Observer]

clutching at straws my ass. i have many family members in law enforcement that we have discussed this and i can assure you, you are totally wrong on all your points. ive seen the quality of many of your arguments before and im afraid its not worth discussing with you any more.

That suits me immensely. By the way I've witnessed the quality of your input here in this Forum over the years, and I must say I'm not impressed

[harry]

Entirely agree with C.D. and Observer.What seems to have been forgotten is that Schwartz speaks of words being spoken before the scuffle.Who spoke is not mentioned, but it could have been Stride,and the shove by BS a rejection of whatever she said.
As to Pipeman leaving,is that correct?Schwartz statement suggests he(Pipeman)followed for only a short distance,so his whereabouts later is not known.
Could Pipeman have been the same person that Brown saw?.I believe so,and in that case would Stride reject him if he went to her aid after Schwartz and BS departed,and he(pipeman) returned?Conjecture clearly,but fits as neatly as any other theory.