If Schwartz Lied ...

[c.d.]

The Schwartz discussion rages on. But if it were shown conclusively that he did in fact lie what does that tell us about Stride's death and whether or not she was killed by the Ripper? Does it confirm a club conspiracy?

Keep in mind that according to Schwartz Stride was still alive when he left the scene.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Hi c.d.,

I think Schwartz's statement to the police clearly refutes the idea of Schwartz being part of the proposed club conspiracy. Schwartz told the police he believed Lipski was shouted at Pipeman, whom he took to be Broad Shoulder's accomplice. As such, Schwartz's statement implicates a Jewish offender rather than deflects attention away from a Jewish offender. It doesn't matter that the police were of the opinion that Schwartz was mistaken, and that Lipski was probably shouted at Schwartz not Pipeman, as that is not the story Schwartz told. And there's no way a club conspiracy is going to direct the police to consider a Jewish offender being involved, that's the antithesis of their objective. Basically, Schwartz's statement refutes the club conspiracy by itself.

Anyway, the police were checking for any Lipski's in the area (there's messages to Home Office about that), so even though they thought Schwartz was probably mistaken, they still were looking into the story as he told it as well. And clearly the took him seriously for some time.

If Schwartz were proven to have lied, then we still have the other sightings of her, and her discovery by Diemshutz. Very little, I think, would change as a lot people tend to interpret the events around Stride's murder without putting too much emphasis on Schwartz.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Thanks, Jeff.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree with Jeff 100%. Even if Schwartz lied or was mistaken (something that we can’t prove of course) anyone proposing a conspiracy would be left to do what is currently being done. Relying on mistaken witness timings and completely ignoring evidence that refutes those timings.

[c.d.]

Hello Herlock,

But would it have any effect on whether Stride was a Ripper victim?

c.d.

[Losmandris]

I think what Schwartz saw was a bit of street hassle that could have been pretty common at the time. Basically prostitute accosting guy in the street, guy in the street takes offence and pushes said prostitute (who may be a little worse for wear because of drink) to the ground. Schwartz witnesses this and is basically told to mind his own business. As he was new to the area, he may have interpreted what he saw as more that it was. This is why I believe the police interviewed him, realised that what he saw had nothing to do with the actual murder and then dismissed him from appearing at the inquest. This could also explain why the police published a description of BS at a latter date, rather than identifying him as a possible suspect, they wanted to speak to him as one of the last people to have interacted with the victim.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

But would it have any effect on whether Stride was a Ripper victim?

c.d.

It’s a good question c.d.

Personally I don’t think that it would because Schwartz just introduces BS man and Pipeman. BS man as a potential killer but of course he still might not have been the ripper. He introduces a possible killer of Stride. It might be argued - would the ripper have drawn attention to himself in such a way that he was easily identifiable and then gone on to murder on that spot?

[c.d.]

Hello Herlock,

Agreed. Even if BS man is eliminated as the killer we still don't know whether her killer was Jack or someone else. I think Schwartz just saw a street hassle and her killer was not the BS man. I think Jack came along shortly after.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

It’s a good question c.d.

Personally I don’t think that it would because Schwartz just introduces BS man and Pipeman. BS man as a potential killer but of course he still might not have been the ripper. He introduces a possible killer of Stride. It might be argued - would the ripper have drawn attention to himself in such a way that he was easily identifiable and then gone on to murder on that spot?

Well, if either Long or Lawende saw JtR, then being spotted wasn't sufficient to prevent him. The difference, of course, is that with Stride there's the addition of a physical confrontation as well. The other difference is that with both Long's and Lawende's sighting, JtR and the victim are engaged in conversations while Schwartz describes an attack out of nowhere on Stride, which seems unlike what is thought to have occurred with Nicoles (though we have no sightings in that case, so we don't really know there), Chapman, and Eddowes, that the victim led JtR to the eventual crime scene. However, in Stride's case BS just seems to have attacked her without any interaction of length preceding it, though some have suggested she may have propositioned him and that sparked the attack. Regardless, what Schwartz describes seems a bit of a deviation from JtR's usual behaviour of engaging in some interaction with the victim prior to the attack. Not that every attack has to be a carbon copy of the others, of course, and one could argue that's why he fled the scene - it didn't go the way he needs it to go. Hmmm, I suppose if it was proven Scwartz lied, and he didn't witness what he claims, then it opens up the possibility that there was some interaction between JtR and Stride, etc, increasing, rather than decreasing, her fit with the other murders? And, of course, there are potential sightings of Stride with men prior to her being found.

- Jeff

[Observer]

I think what Schwartz saw was a bit of street hassle that could have been pretty common at the time. Basically prostitute accosting guy in the street, guy in the street takes offence and pushes said prostitute (who may be a little worse for wear because of drink) to the ground. Schwartz witnesses this and is basically told to mind his own business. As he was new to the area, he may have interpreted what he saw as more that it was. This is why I believe the police interviewed him, realised that what he saw had nothing to do with the actual murder and then dismissed him from appearing at the inquest. This could also explain why the police published a description of BS at a latter date, rather than identifying him as a possible suspect, they wanted to speak to him as one of the last people to have interacted with the victim.

I believe you're spot on Tristan. I'd just add that I'm sure the police would have realised that had BS man murdered Stride, then there's no way she would have been hanging onto those cachous when found. Add to this the fact that when Spooner knelt to look at Stride blood was still flowing from her neck. As you say they would still have wanted to speak to BS man, he being one of the last people to have interacted with Stride. Personally, I think it highly unlikely that there was time enough for a second assailant to murder Stride after the BS man incident, and therefore I believe Schwartz was lying.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Herlock,

Agreed. Even if BS man is eliminated as the killer we still don't know whether her killer was Jack or someone else. I think Schwartz just saw a street hassle and her killer was not the BS man. I think Jack came along shortly after.

c.d.

hi cd its possible, but highly unlikely IMHO. and why make up phantom rippers when you have a perfectly valid one right in front of you.
ive talked to cops i know, and the chances of a victim being assaulted and then shortly after murdered by a different person totally unconnected is extremely rare as to be discounted. i beleive weve had some former police on here that have said the same thing.
also, it would make the timing extremely tight. and of course the whole peaked cap man thingy.

ive seen over the years you take this stance and im somewhat baffled by it. why are you so adament that bs man wasnt strides killer and or the ripper? i dont get it.

[c.d.]

Personally, I think it highly unlikely that there was time enough for a second assailant to murder Stride after the BS man incident, and therefore I believe Schwartz was lying.

Hello Observer,

But Swanson allowed for that possibility in his report so he must have been okay with the time frame.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I believe you're spot on Tristan. I'd just add that I'm sure the police would have realised that had BS man murdered Stride, then there's no way she would have been hanging onto those cachous when found. Add to this the fact that when Spooner knelt to look at Stride blood was still flowing from her neck. As you say they would still have wanted to speak to BS man, he being one of the last people to have interacted with Stride. Personally, I think it highly unlikely that there was time enough for a second assailant to murder Stride after the BS man incident, and therefore I believe Schwartz was lying.

absolutely could still have been hanging onto the cashoo. modern forensics have found violently murdered people and people in car accidents clutching something in there hands.cashoo is red herring.

BS man also fits other witness descriptions that night including at mitre square.
its all in the peaked cap.

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

I wouldn't describe myself as adamant but here is my thinking:

I think you are hung up on the word "assault." There are assaults and then there are assaults. Schwartz only saw a woman being pushed nothing more. As soon as someone connects what Schwartz describes with Stride's actual death the tendency is to say aha! this had to have been a brutal assault but that is not what Schwartz saw.

With regard to the odds of two assaults in a short period of time, I think you are ignoring the circumstances under which those assaults took place. If Stride had been standing in front of a church at noon on Sunday in the midst of a group of people then I would say yes that is quite remarkable. But the fact is you have a lone woman out on the street by herself late at night in a rough neighborhood right after the pubs had closed and there were likely a lot of drunken men on the street.

With regard to the BS man being her killer I see a number of red flags:

No one heard any argument despite testimony from club members saying they were virtually certain that they would have heard it through the open windows despite the singing in the club.

There were no marks on Stride's face to indicate that she had been slapped around and no cuts to her body other than the throat. Her clothes are not torn which you would expect had there been a struggle. So we have to assume that an extremely angry BS man suddenly went from 0 to 60 and cut her throat.

You then have to wonder why the BS man would have gone on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. A reasonable assumption would have been that Schwartz was on his way to find the nearest PC. If the BS man had left the scene after Schwartz ran off without killing Stride he only would have been guilty of pushing a woman. If he kills her there are now two witnesses that can describe him. But if you say he was in a rage and didn't care see above. There is nothing to indicate that rage in his actions.

And of course there are the cachous which I won't go into. I know you don't accept that but as I so often urged you grab one of your friends and have them try to push you away. Notice their hands. I am willing to bet they are flat and not in a fist. I don't see how they survived a struggle. To me it indicates that she took them out after the BS man left.

To me, this all indicates a little street hassle and not a murder.

I know you won't agree with any of the above and that is fine. That is what these boards are for.

[Observer]

Personally, I think it highly unlikely that there was time enough for a second assailant to murder Stride after the BS man incident, and therefore I believe Schwartz was lying.

Hello Observer,

But Swanson allowed for that possibility in his report so he must have been okay with the time frame.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

Yes he did, as I said though, in my opinion it's highly unlikely. Could Stride have been that unlucky to have been thrown about by some drunken thug, and then up sidles JTR? Not impossible of course.