If Schwartz Lied ...

[Michael W Richards]

It may 'appear' like that to you, Michael, as white appears black. But in light of other observations you have made to support your funny little Jewish conspiracy theory, that doesn't fill me with any confidence.

This "conspiracy" you folks keep denying is hilarious, its an agreement between 2 principals at the club to give arrival times that make their story look like immediate response. When we clearly have witnesses that stated other men were standing around when they arrived. They attempted damage control, like anyone would and particularly men who are perceived as "low men" and anarchists by police before this event...and you guys think its some back room, dark ops, espionage.

I think you folks need to re-evaluate whats worth the fuss you make. particularly when evidence supports the arguments, and youre hanging your hat on the truthfullness of 3 unsubstantiated men.

[caz]

Let’s look at Spooner’s statement and weigh up what’s likeliest to have been correct.



Well this is pretty vague for a start for a man who estimated a time of 12.35 for the time that he’d arrived at the yard. Why didn’t he just say ‘at around 12.30 I was standing....etc?’ Why does he give himself the half an hours leeway? This points to a real uncertainty about the time.



This doesn’t tell us much of course. He doesn’t say that he left the pub at closing time which he might have mentioned as he mentions closing times later on. We also don’t know if that woman was with him at the time.



So he was talking for 25 minutes but we don’t know when this 25 began. We also know for a fact the Spooner didn’t have a watch so this 25 minutes was another estimate.



So an estimated 5 minutes then an estimated 25 minutes chatting to a girl. Has anyone ever lost track of time when talking to someone?



Firstly we have to notice that the sentence is not a positive one (like ‘I could fix the time by the closing of the pubs) He’s saying it to show that this was the only method that he had for estimating the time and that he couldn’t be answerable to his accuracy. We also notice here that he doesn’t say ‘the pub closing time..’ He’s not specifically talking about the pub that he’d been in he’s talking about pub closing times in general so it’s very possible that he was talking about the Beehive. Was he paying attention to the pub whilst talking to the woman? Why would he? He wasn’t inside The Beehive so how does he get to his estimate? Maybe he saw the lights go off? How then could he have been sure that after the customers had left the staff hadn’t spent 20 minutes cleaning up before lights out? Might he not have seen some people leaving the pub and assumed that it was chucking out time?

Then after he’d arrived at the yard.....



Seen by Mrs Mortimer after 1.00?



The previous witness was PC Lamb of course and it was him that Spooner saw arrive. Lamb said that he’d been alerted to the crime “At about 1.00 as near as I can tell.” So obviously a very few minutes later is no issue but he also said:



So by using Blackwell, who did have a watch, we can be certain that Lamb got to the yard sometime very close to 1.05. And...5 minutes before 1.05 is.....12.35, only joking.....it’s 1.00.

......

And so which is the most likely to have been correct? An estimate based on the vagaries of pub closing times, guesses on standing times, walking times and talking times.

or

An estimate based on the arrival of a police officer (who are generally pretty aware of the time due to their beats) which is confirmed by a Doctor with a watch. It’s also confirmed by Diemschutz and pal running past shouting (heard and confirmed by James Brown) and Mrs Mortimer (after 1.00)

....

Can anyone doubt which one was overwhelmingly likely to have been correct? Correct beyond reasonable doubt?

12.35 or 1.00?

I’d say that it’s obvious.

What makes me smile is that Michael seems to want Spooner to have arrived at 12.35, to find Louis and others already panicking over their discovery of Stride's dead body - which doesn't work any better for his theory than if Spooner arrived just after 1am, to find that Louis and others had just raised the alarm.

If Michael doesn't want an arrival time as early as 12.35, what does he want to take from Spooner's account to support his theory?

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

What makes me smile is that Michael seems to want Spooner to have arrived at 12.35, to find Louis and others already panicking over their discovery of Stride's dead body - which doesn't work any better for his theory than if Spooner arrived just after 1am, to find that Louis and others had just raised the alarm.

If Michael doesn't want an arrival time as early as 12.35, what does he want to take from Spooner's account to support his theory?

Love,

Caz
X

Never once agreed that Spooner arrived at 12:35, dont dispute that as an error, never did. Ever. So maybe get my position straight before you sumarize me, capisce?

Spooner saw 2 jews between 12:40 and 12:45 running. He didnt see Louis and Issac, he also never said they were who he joined. He arrived with them in the passageway, you know, the one that 4 men say people were gathered in between 12:40 and 12:45? By Louis and a dying woman...who likely bleeds out before Louis or Morris even leave for help? You know...that one.

Spooner might have been wrong by a few minutes, which would allign him with 3 others by time. But you want any witness that disagrees with a man provably wrong and without any support by witness to be wrong, all of them, by the same 20 minute interval?

Is there a Ministry of Silly People? Like in the Silly Walk sketch?

[caz]

Your problem is that you evidently believe that a cart and horse and driver coming up cobblestoned streets would not be recognizable or heard by a woman standing at her door to that street. She didnt go back in until just after 1. So if he arrives without being seen by Fanny, then its 1:03-1:05, after she is inside. How does that work with Lamb being notified by Eagle and still being in the yard just after 1? Why do all these other witnesses then believe they were notified 20 minutes before that time?

You and others argue that a minute or two is acceptable with the witnesses you choose to believe, all of who have zero corroberation for the key points within their statements..Louis, Morris, Israel.... but errors of 20 minutes cannot be aceptable by witnesses you dont like even if 4 individual witnesses gave the same times and events?

the fgact you dont see how nonsensical your position is quite frankly disturbs me. Anyone should be able to do math, and estimate how much time is required to accpomplish tasks.

For example, if Louis didnt arrive until 1:03 or :04, the Lamb is made incorrect, all those 4 witnesses are incorrect, and Louis would not have been leaving for help until 1:05-1:10. When Johnson arrives. And after Eagle says he returned.

Your times quite simply dont work. And you dont see that huh? Hmm.

You do seem a little disturbed, Michael, which is unfortunate. Fanny heard Louis arrive, by her own estimation just a few minutes after she had retired for the night. She came out again to find the commotion going on, following his discovery of another murdered woman [the fourth in Whitechapel in recent weeks], this time on the club's premises.

What is the problem with Fanny seeing Goldstein pass by at around 12.55, just as she is locking up, then hearing the pony and cart around 4 minutes later, and remarking on this to her husband? Louis had just passed a clock telling him it was 1am, but it could have been a minute or two fast. How would he know? How would we know?

The fact that Goldstein confirms Fanny's sighting of him, and both were oblivious to anything untoward happening outside, either at the club or on Berner Street itself, before Fanny went inside and prepared for bed as usual, does not support your earlier discovery theory, although it doesn't tell us whether Stride was already dead when Goldstein passed by, or was killed in the interval, just as Louis was approaching.

[caz]

Lipski. Known to be a slur towards Jews ever since the name got infamous. Since your not a child and know this yourself, I wonder why you would then pretend not to?

It's not what I know that matters here, Michael. It's what Schwartz inferred from what he saw and heard. Schwartz said he thought BS man was addressing Pipeman by that name, and took him for an accomplice. Why the devil would he have said that if the whole aim was to deflect the blame for the murder onto an anti-Semitic thug?? He'd have said this thug was insulting him, a Jew, to stop him interfering. Why introduce a third party - Pipeman - leaving it open to interpretation regarding who was being addressed and why?

If you can't see this, after it has been explained to you by more articulate adult posters than myself, I really don't know how else it will ever get through.

[Michael W Richards]

You do seem a little disturbed, Michael, which is unfortunate. Fanny heard Louis arrive, (Fanny heard a cart and Horse, youve put Louis in it, not her) by her own estimation just a few minutes after she had retired for the night.(A few minutes after 1) She came out again to find the commotion going on, following his discovery of another murdered woman [the fourth in Whitechapel in recent weeks], this time on the club's premises. (She found men gathered around a dying or dead woman, like the men that stood around at 12:40 who were seen)

What is the problem with Fanny seeing Goldstein pass by at around 12.55, just as she is locking up, then hearing the pony and cart around 4 minutes later, and remarking on this to her husband? (Hearing a cart and horse, no issue, Louis driving it? Pure speculation on your part.)Louis had just passed a clock telling him it was 1am, but it could have been a minute or two fast. How would he know? How would we know?( again, whats the definiciency in your math skills? Take Lousi arrival beginning from 11:04-05, then compare all the sighting times and witness statements that are for 1am or just after, like Lamb. Witnesses without bias or risks here..trustowrthy. Second party validated. They dont work if Louis arrived at 1:04, 1:05, or 1:06....why, because Eagle says he came back into the yard with Lamb at that time. So, what time did Eagle leave for help then? After 1:05 same time Louis does, as he claimed,.... or MUST HE HAVE LEFT MUCH EARLIER TO HAVE SEARCHED, THEN MET LAMB AND ACCOMPANY HIM BACK TO THE GATES? WHEN ISSAC K SEES HIM RETUrN WITH LAMB AND JOINS THEM? HAVE YOU BEEN THIS CONFUSED ABOUT THE TIMES BECAUSE THINGS DONT HAPPEN INSTANTANEOUSLY, THEY TAKE TIME, WHICH YOU AND JOTSOHN NEVER FACTOR IN?

Proof that Eagle lied about the time he left and Louis lied about the time he arrived. Simple.

The fact that Goldstein confirms Fanny's sighting of him, and both were oblivious to anything untoward happening outside, either at the club or on Berner Street itself, before Fanny went inside and prepared for bed as usual, does not support your earlier discovery theory, although it doesn't tell us whether Stride was already dead when Goldstein passed by, or was killed in the interval, just as Louis was approaching.

4 men who all said they were by Louis and a dying woman between 12:35 and 45 confirm that arrival time, not me. Your just not paying attention, being obstinate just for the jolly, or I really hope not...but you cant do the math.

[Michael W Richards]

It's not what I know that matters here, Michael. It's what Schwartz inferred from what he saw and heard. Schwartz said he thought BS man was addressing Pipeman by that name, and took him for an accomplice. Why the devil would he have said that if the whole aim was to deflect the blame for the murder onto an anti-Semitic thug?? He'd have said this thug was insulting him, a Jew, to stop him interfering. Why introduce a third party - Pipeman - leaving it open to interpretation regarding who was being addressed and why?

If you can't see this, after it has been explained to you by more articulate adult posters than myself, I really don't know how else it will ever get through.

If Im suggesting Schwartz lied for Wess, then why would I use anything he says as truth? What he says he felt was meant by Lipski is not relevant in that light,.. what the investigators thought, nay KNEW, the term was used for, is.

Seems you guys dont read....I say Louis lied about the time he arrived, Morris lied about the time he left, Lave and Eagle lied about what was happening at around 12:40, and Israels story of Liz on the street at 12:45 is all hogwash. Issac left alone before 12:40, Spooner did not see Louis and someone with the surname of Issacs before 12:45.

Geez...how could I be sol bold you ask? Because not one of them has any corroberation, and 4 witnesses that do corroborate each other in all salient points all suggest the 3 noncobs must have lied by virtue of their own, independant, non-conspiracy, statements.

[caz]

Never once agreed that Spooner arrived at 12:35, dont dispute that as an error, never did. Ever. So maybe get my position straight before you sumarize me, capisce?

Er, that's precisely why I asked what you were taking as gospel from Spooner's testimony, to support your Early Learning theory.

Spooner saw 2 jews between 12:40 and 12:45 running. He didnt see Louis and Issac, he also never said they were who he joined. He arrived with them in the passageway, you know, the one that 4 men say people were gathered in between 12:40 and 12:45? By Louis and a dying woman...who likely bleeds out before Louis or Morris even leave for help? You know...that one.

Spooner might have been wrong by a few minutes, which would allign him with 3 others by time. But you want any witness that disagrees with a man provably wrong and without any support by witness to be wrong, all of them, by the same 20 minute interval?

Is there a Ministry of Silly People? Like in the Silly Walk sketch?

You should know, Michael. You're the only one in step.

[caz]

4 men who all said they were by Louis and a dying woman between 12:35 and 45 confirm that arrival time, not me. Your just not paying attention, being obstinate just for the jolly, or I really hope not...but you cant do the math.

Where did I put Louis's arrival time at 1:04 or later? Louis didn't. He saw a clock which could have been a minute or two fast, putting his arrival time at 12:58 or 12:59.

Fanny could have heard his pony and cart at that time, if she had been indoors for 3 or 4 minutes by then, after seeing Goldstein around 12:55 as she was locking up for the night.

Herlock has already explained a million times in words of one syllable why you don't have 4 men all giving a reliable account of being with Louis and Stride by 12:45, so I won't waste any more time on your repeated claim that they 'confirm' your preferred arrival time in any way, shape or form. They simply don't.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What makes me smile is that Michael seems to want Spooner to have arrived at 12.35, to find Louis and others already panicking over their discovery of Stride's dead body - which doesn't work any better for his theory than if Spooner arrived just after 1am, to find that Louis and others had just raised the alarm.

If Michael doesn't want an arrival time as early as 12.35, what does he want to take from Spooner's account to support his theory?

Love,

Caz
X

Good point Caz. Whichever way you slice it the ‘conspiracy’ crumbles.

[Herlock Sholmes]

IF there was some kind of club conspiracy (and there wasnt) but if there was, their first inclination would be to get rid of the body(they even had a cart!) and keep their mouths shut and play dumb. not leave the body there and come up with some convoluted plan which they would all have to remember and talk to police about! lol

the club conspiracy idea is nonsense on the face of it.

Let me know if you stumble across anyone that believes it Abby.

[caz]

If Im suggesting Schwartz lied for Wess, then why would I use anything he says as truth? What he says he felt was meant by Lipski is not relevant in that light,.. what the investigators thought, nay KNEW, the term was used for, is.

Arse about face, Michael. The only thing here of any relevance is that Schwartz did not claim that the man attacking Stride was a non-Jew, because he recognised "Lipski" as an anti-Semitic insult. Not even close. He had two Jews in cahoots, one addressing the other. Men named Lipski were even sought in this connection, in case his interpretation was the correct one. If he was lying for Wess, and got the story this wrong, how did Wess let him loose with this version of it? If Wess was his interpreter it's even worse, because he could have 'interpreted' Schwartz's words any way he saw fit, to give the right impression of a non-Jewish assailant.

Seems you guys dont read....I say Louis lied about the time he arrived, Morris lied about the time he left, Lave and Eagle lied about what was happening at around 12:40, and Israels story of Liz on the street at 12:45 is all hogwash. Issac left alone before 12:40, Spooner did not see Louis and someone with the surname of Issacs before 12:45.

You can 'say' what you like, Michael, but we guys don't have to accept that you have any of this stuff nailed using all the available evidence.

Geez...how could I be sol bold you ask? Because not one of them has any corroberation, and 4 witnesses that do corroborate each other in all salient points all suggest the 3 noncobs must have lied by virtue of their own, independant, non-conspiracy, statements.

In any conspiracy, you will have the conspirators all singing from the same hymn sheet, while the innocent witnesses will be guesstimating their times individually, according to their personal circumstances, so I'm not sure how you have concluded that the 4 were squeaky clean [or even confirming one another's times] while the 3 were lying bar stewards.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your problem is that you evidently believe that a cart and horse and driver coming up cobblestoned streets would not be recognizable or heard by a woman standing at her door to that street. She didnt go back in until just after 1. So if he arrives without being seen by Fanny, then its 1:03-1:05, after she is inside. How does that work with Lamb being notified by Eagle and still being in the yard just after 1? Why do all these other witnesses then believe they were notified 20 minutes before that time?

More selective quoting Michael. You continually and intentionally ignore her statement to the Evening News where she said that she went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed, for 10 minutes. Now if she said that she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes specifically this means that she went inside after that 10 minutes or she’d have claimed to have been on her doorstep for 15 minutes or 20 minutes. Then she next came onto her doorstep when she heard the commotion at the yard and after she’d heard a horse and cart. This again is very simple stuff Michael. She didn’t see Diemschutz arrive because she was inside her house but she heard a horse and cart. Now obviously you’ll make the claim that this back street was chock full of traffic at 1.00 am but don’t be surprised that no one believes it for a second.

It’s also noticeable Michael that the attentive Mrs Mortimer didn’t see or hear Diemschutz arrive back at 12.35 either but strangely you don’t see that as an issue. I can’t think why?

You and others argue that a minute or two is acceptable with the witnesses you choose to believe, all of who have zero corroberation for the key points within their statements..Louis, Morris, Israel.... but errors of 20 minutes cannot be aceptable by witnesses you dont like even if 4 individual witnesses gave the same times and events?

You’re right. Errors of 20 minutes cannot be accepted so we should dismiss them. You don’t though do you? No one corroborates Hoschberg. No one corroborates Spooner’s 12.35 error. Eagle said 1.00 so please stop mentioning him to bolster your fantasy.

the fgact you dont see how nonsensical your position is quite frankly disturbs me. Anyone should be able to do math, and estimate how much time is required to accpomplish tasks.

Michael....you keep accusing everyone of stupidity.....take a deep breath or preferably a few and ask yourself this very, very, very relevant question:

”WHY ISNT THERE A SINGLE PERSON IN THE WHOLE OF RIPPEROLOGY WHO BELIEVES THAT MY CONSPIRACY ACTUALLY OCCURRED.”

You really need to think about that instead of persisting in the belief that your cleverer and more perceptive than everyone else. Your not. You’re just wrong. And I’m pretty sure that deep down you know it.

For example, if Louis didnt arrive until 1:03 or :04, the Lamb is made incorrect, all those 4 witnesses are incorrect, and Louis would not have been leaving for help until 1:05-1:10. When Johnson arrives. And after Eagle says he returned.

Diemschutz got back at 1.00. Lamb got there around 1.05ish. This fits the evidence not your exercise in cherry picking and shoehorning.

Your times quite simply dont work. And you dont see that huh? Hmm.

No. You simply need to take an adult approach to assessing the times. Like FrankO does. Like Jeff does. Like Caz does. Like Joshua does. In fact, like everyone else does. Witnesses in a poverty stricken area of London in 1888 cannot be held to exact times. The very suggestion is preposterous. Even today when everyone has a watch or a mobile phone the police wouldn’t dismiss witnesses for being a very few minutes out unless they spent the whole time looking at an accurate click. So we have to apply common sense and judgment. Qualities that I’m afraid you appear to lack where your theory is involved. Some of the claims that you’ve stopped to on this thread have been nothing short of remarkable.

Who can forget the nonsensical, childish “evidence of absence” one?
Or that some people might have made the sound of a horse and cart?
Or that when Diemschutz said ‘precisely 1.00’ he meant that he’d arrived at the yard the split second that hour hand hit 1.00?
Or the 97 times that you’ve completely ignored the fact that Spooner said that he’d arrived at the yard 5 minutes before Lamb.?
Or how you selectively ignore Mortimer’s inconvenient statement to the Evening News?

So many.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. :05 same time Louis does, as he claimed,.... or MUST HE HAVE LEFT MUCH EARLIER TO HAVE SEARCHED, THEN MET LAMB AND ACCOMPANY HIM BACK TO THE GATES? WHEN ISSAC K SEES HIM RETUrN WITH LAMB AND JOINS THEM? HAVE YOU BEEN THIS CONFUSED ABOUT THE TIMES BECAUSE THINGS DONT HAPPEN INSTANTANEOUSLY, THEY TAKE TIME, WHICH YOU AND JOTSOHN NEVER FACTOR IN?

Proof that Eagle lied about the time he left and Louis lied about the time he arrived. Simple.

Buy a dictionary Michael. I don’t know how you have the nerve to call this waffle proof?

Lamb said that he was in Commercial Road at around 1.00 when he saw Eagle. So 1.05 is easily close enough. Eagle said that he was called to the yard by Gilleman at 1.00 This ties up very neatly. Diemschutz returns at 1.00. Eagle sees the body a couple of minutes later and goes for a police officer. He finds Lamb sometime between 1.00 and 1.05. They return to the yard. In the meantime Kozebrodski and Diemschutz go in the other direction. Koz heads off first maybe believing that he was going on his own but Louis follows. Koz turns back, Diemschutz has run into Spooner. Louis and Spooner get back to the yard and Koz shoots off along Berner Street where he meets Eagle and Lamb and returns with them.

Forget trying to piece this together with exact times. Accept a couple of minutes here or there. Accept that when someone says ‘5 minutes’ it could actually have enough 3 minutes or 7 minutes.

No mystery...just guessed times and errors.

[Michael W Richards]

Buy a dictionary Michael. I don’t know how you have the nerve to call this waffle proof?

Lamb said that he was in Commercial Road at around 1.00 when he saw Eagle. So 1.05 is easily close enough. Eagle said that he was called to the yard by Gilleman at 1.00 This ties up very neatly. Diemschutz returns at 1.00. Eagle sees the body a couple of minutes later and goes for a police officer. He finds Lamb sometime between 1.00 and 1.05. They return to the yard. In the meantime Kozebrodski and Diemschutz go in the other direction. Koz heads off first maybe believing that he was going on his own but Louis follows. Koz turns back, Diemschutz has run into Spooner. Louis and Spooner get back to the yard and Koz shoots off along Berner Street where he meets Eagle and Lamb and returns with them.

Forget trying to piece this together with exact times. Accept a couple of minutes here or there. Accept that when someone says ‘5 minutes’ it could actually have enough 3 minutes or 7 minutes.

No mystery...just guessed times and errors.

You "accept" your unsubstantiated witness accounts and toss the accounts from witnesses who all agree with each otehrs times and are 20 minutes earlier than Louis stated arrival time....thats the crux here? Its ok to accept your non validated witness times are incorrect by some few minutes, but you cannot accept the vast majority, and only, substantiated times?

Ive heard the opera you folks suggest like the above, and the used timings are all wrong.

Enough though. Ive pointed out you are backing the club employees times that have no second hand verification whatsoever in favour of the majority of non affiliated witness acounts that give times of 12:35-12:45, Ive pointed out so many times it hurts that Israel not being at the Inquest means he wasnt supported or believed by the police or the people organizing the Inquest, and ive pointed out that the club was perceievd as an anarchists club, which would lead one to believe a murder on their property would be very interesting to law enforcement and likey a catalyst for closure...and you sing the same old songs using the least credible accounts..and without any substantiation.

Logic it seems is not enough, nor is reason, it seems when you buy the ghoul premise you have to throw out good, keep the bad, and hope like hell someone can prove an interruption took place.

Good luck on that.