If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Louis: I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was.

Have you ever wondered what it would have felt like it was?

Louis: I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down at once and struck a match, and as it was rather windy I could not get sufficient light to see exactly what it was. I could see, however, that there was the figure of some person lying there.

So the whip handle apparently wasn't enough to tell him what it was - he needed to strike a match to see better.
Okay fine, but I want to know what it felt like it was. What do you suppose?

Arbeter Fraint: He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Louis: Cart is gone?

[Observer]

Not that long ago, we had similar shenanigans, we witness here in this thread over in the Maybrick threads. Has the ghost who is Iconoclast decided to haunt this thread?

[Herlock Sholmes]

How many people here have thought about this issue any deeper than Herlock has?
Let's trace part of the story that virtually everyone believes to be true, through the words of Louis and Sarah Diemschitz ...

Louis: I drove in as usual, and, all at once, as I came into the gate, my pony shied to the left. That caused me to turn my head down to the ground on my right to see what it was that had made him shy.
Baxter: Could you see anything?
Louis: I could see that there was something unusual on the pavement. I could not see what it was. It was a dark object. There was nothing white about it. I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down at once and struck a match, and as it was rather windy I could not get sufficient light to see exactly what it was. I could see, however, that there was the figure of some person lying there. I could tell by the dress that it was a woman. I did not disturb it. I went into the club, and asked where my missus was. I saw her in the front room on the ground floor.
Baxter: What did you do with the pony in the meantime?
Louis: I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

Where is the pony & cart? Easy - outside the side door of the club. Continuing ...

Louis: There were several members in the front room, where my wife was, and I told them all, "There is a woman lying in the yard," but I could not say whether she was drunk or dead.

Sarah (MA, Oct 2): I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. ... I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman ...

Where is the pony & cart? Same as before - outside the side door of the club. Continuing ...

Louis: I then took a candle and went out at once, and by the candle light I could see that there was blood about before I reached the body.

Sarah: ... to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

Where is the pony & cart?
What will happen when the members rush downstairs in a body out into the yard through the side door?

Louis: I did not touch the body, but went off at once for the police.

Sarah: When my husband examined the body he found that life, so far as he could tell, was quite extinct. He at once sent for a policeman.

Where is the pony & cart?

Bonus questions. Did Louis touch the body? Where is Louis at this point?

When others joined Louis in the yard one of them, probably at Louis request, moved the horse and cart. No one mentioned it because it’s in no way connected to the case.

Moving on…..

[Herlock Sholmes]

Louis: Cart is gone?

The Freemason’s took it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Louis: I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was.

Have you ever wondered what it would have felt like it was?

Louis: I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down at once and struck a match, and as it was rather windy I could not get sufficient light to see exactly what it was. I could see, however, that there was the figure of some person lying there.

So the whip handle apparently wasn't enough to tell him what it was - he needed to strike a match to see better.
Okay fine, but I want to know what it felt like it was. What do you suppose?

Arbeter Fraint: He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body.

And your point is?

[Herlock Sholmes]

https://www.orsam.co.uk/news.htm

New articles by David including some excellent stuff on Inquests which should be of interest to posters on this thread.

[DJA]

Louis: Cart is gone?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

When others joined Louis in the yard one of them, probably at Louis request, moved the horse and cart.

Louis: I did not touch the body, but went off at once for the police.

No request - you just made that up - although it might have been that Louis stayed in the yard, and not gone out for police as he said he did.
There is some evidence to suggest that was the case - including the words of his wife.
Perhaps you could summarise that evidence and make an actual case for Louis staying behind to direct traffic?

No one mentioned it because it’s in no way connected to the case.

No one mentioned it because it was not there to move - it was already in the back yard, where the other carts were kept.
That is why, when members rush into the yard, none of them run into the pony or cart, and no one ever has to squeeze between victim and cart. It is not there to cause problems.

Eagle: A member named Gidleman came up and said there was a dead woman in the yard.
Baxter: Did you go down?
Eagle: Yes, and saw a woman lying on the ground in much blood.

When did this occur, in relation to this ...?

Sarah: I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

Were many members now in the yard?

Eagle: When I reached the body and struck the match there was only one of the members present.

Had Diemschitz even arrived at this point?
Who really discovered the body?

Moving on…..

You're evading difficult questions by coming up with arbitrary maybes that have no connection to the evidence - as you often do.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Nice photo Dave. How long do you reckon that whip handle is?

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Louis: I did not touch the body, but went off at once for the police.

No request - you just made that up - although it might have been that Louis stayed in the yard, and not gone out for police as he said he did.
There is some evidence to suggest that was the case - including the words of his wife.
Perhaps you could summarise that evidence and make an actual case for Louis staying behind to direct traffic?

Why do you seek to complicate or mystify. Diemschutz didn’t mention scratching his arse either but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t do it. The fact that it’s not recorded that he asked someone to move his horse is irrelevant. It was there…then it wasn’t….therefore it was moved. Simple.

If you’re trying to suggest that there was no horse and cart in the first place then we would have to ask why the police didn’t notice this glaring absence?

Absolutely zero mystery here.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No one mentioned it because it was not there to move - it was already in the back yard, where the other carts were kept.
That is why, when members rush into the yard, none of them run into the pony or cart, and no one ever has to squeeze between victim and cart. It is not there to cause problems.

Eagle: A member named Gidleman came up and said there was a dead woman in the yard.
Baxter: Did you go down?
Eagle: Yes, and saw a woman lying on the ground in much blood.

When did this occur, in relation to this ...?

Sarah: I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

Were many members now in the yard?

Eagle: When I reached the body and struck the match there was only one of the members present.

Had Diemschitz even arrived at this point?
Who really discovered the body?



You're evading difficult questions by coming up with arbitrary maybes that have no connection to the evidence - as you often do.

I’m avoiding nothing except pointless nitpicking. The horse was moved at some point. That’s all that needs to be said. There is no mystery.

Diemschutz arrived at 1.00 As he said. We know that it was 1.00 because he saw a clock. His wife confirmed this. As did Eagle. Everything confirms this because it’s what happened, without a shadow of doubt.

You say that I often evade difficult questions. I don’t. The one that you’re going on about is one that cannot be answered because no record remains of anyone mentioning the cart. Reason tells us that it must have been moved. It’s a non-point.

Ill tell you what you often do though and you pretty much do it in every thread that you post on - you deliberately seek to insert mystery and cover-up into every single situation where none exists. Like here. There is no mystery. Diemschutz discovered the body at 1.00. There’s not a single, solitary, minute smidgeon of evidence of a cover up.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not that long ago, we had similar shenanigans, we witness here in this thread over in the Maybrick threads. Has the ghost who is Iconoclast decided to haunt this thread?

So sorry to wake you up. Were you enjoying your dogmatic slumber, in the back seat?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why do you seek to complicate or mystify. Diemschutz didn’t mention scratching his arse either but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t do it. The fact that it’s not recorded that he asked someone to move his horse is irrelevant. It was there…then it wasn’t….therefore it was moved. Simple.

Many mysteries exist, and they exist regardless of me bringing them to your or anyone else's attention

If you’re trying to suggest that there was no horse and cart in the first place then we would have to ask why the police didn’t notice this glaring absence?

I suggest you re-read my post

Absolutely zero mystery here.

Where 'here' refers to the stories in your head

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’m avoiding nothing except pointless nitpicking.

So 20 members minus 2 members = pointless nit-picking

Once again, you revert to a catch-all response

The horse was moved at some point. That’s all that needs to be said. There is no mystery.

That is not a good enough answer. Was it moved before or after the members came pell-mell down the stairs and out into the yard?

"That’s all that needs to be said" - kind of reveals your attitude. Issues apparently need to be dealt with, not carefully studied.

Diemschutz arrived at 1.00 As he said. We know that it was 1.00 because he saw a clock.

That is not a logically sound statement - the conclusion does not follow from the premise

His wife confirmed this. As did Eagle. Everything confirms this because it’s what happened, without a shadow of doubt.

His wife confirmed this? You're just about right ...

Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

So not quite 1am when Louis came in. So I guess he saw the clock at about 12:56.

By the way, do you need that 4 minutes prior to 1am, to sneak the murderer in and out of the yard, unseen and unheard? Good luck with that.

As for Eagle, his story does not gel with Mrs D's account, as I'm sure you can see.

You say that I often evade difficult questions. I don’t. The one that you’re going on about is one that cannot be answered because no record remains of anyone mentioning the cart. Reason tells us that it must have been moved. It’s a non-point.

Reason tells us that it must have been moved, to make sense of the story - but have you got the right story?

Ill tell you what you often do though and you pretty much do it in every thread that you post on - you deliberately seek to insert mystery and cover-up into every single situation where none exists. Like here. There is no mystery. Diemschutz discovered the body at 1.00. There’s not a single, solitary, minute smidgeon of evidence of a cover up.

Your big problem, and I think this is very common one, is that you understand the events of that night (and the others), through the prism of a story. This happened, then this, then this, etc.
You don't like your stories being muddied or challenged, by hard to explain away evidence or difficult questions.
Whereas I see the challenge as one of sifting through a pile of evidence. If that leads me to same general place as most other students of the case, fine, if not, fine. What I do not do, is seek to create mystery - there is plenty of that as it is.