If Schwartz Lied ...

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

Perhaps you have come across some detail I missed.
It was my understanding that Spooner was picked up by Diemschitz & Koz. on their way back from the Grove St. end of Fairclough St.
Spooner was with his lady friend at the bottom end of Christian St. at Fairclough.
Spooner joined Diem & Koz. as they returned to Dutfields Yard, no mention of whether his lady tagged along behind.
Would you leave your girlfriend on those backstreets after an alarm has been raised of a murder?, I know I wouldn't, yet no mention of her joining Spooner.

So, as to your thoughts, how do we place Spooner with his lady standing 'smooching' on the corner by the Board School (at Fairclough & Berner) when his own words suggest he came passed that point with two other men without stopping?

Hi Wickerman,

I'm wondering if between the time the Standing Couple are last spotted at Fairclough and Berner, which seems to be by James Brown if he's misidentified the lady as Stride, and the search they moved up Fairclough towards Grove as far as Christian St. So, when the search starts 12-15 minutes after Brown sees them, they are now at F&C rather than F&B. No mention of is made of a couple being at F&B at the time of the search, so it appears they have left by then, but Fanny suggests she spoke to them at the crime scene, so they come back and probably weren't far away. I'm just wondering if F&C might be where they went, and while she may not have run with the men, she could have come along just behind them. We know more people showed up than get mentioned (i.e. nobody mentions Fanny arriving other than she herself as far as I'm aware).

I recognize Spooner's statements say he was at F&C the entire time, but it's not a great distance, and strolling about is not really unusual and could easily get omitted in his description, particularly if they moved just after Brown passes, so were at F&C for 12ish minutes. But the F&B standing couple seem to be missing at the time of the search, and appear to be there later, and low and behold, just up the street at F&C, we have a couple, who at least one of shows up at the crime scene, and the other we don't know, but as you say, would she really be left abandoned like that, or would she have been coming up behind the men and just not mentioned because, well, it's 1888.

It's entirely speculative, I know, but I don't think it's out of the range of reasonable possibilities. But, that doesn't mean I expect it to be universally accepted, nor even that I universally accept it myself. Just one of those things that occurred to me, but really, can probably never be resolved so could fall either way.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Why didn't Baxter ask the obvious question...

Did you leave with your lady friend?

Was it because Baxter already knew the answer - that there was no lady friend with him? Also, how would Spooner have learnt that the PC's name was Lamb? Did Lamb announce his name to everyone in the yard, or did Spooner already know?

The presence of Mr Harris in the yard - possibly with a lantern, which would explain Spooner's amazing ability to make out that the shape on the ground was a woman, before a match had been struck - probably explains Diemschitz' confusion as to when the police arrived. Louis thought he arrived back (with Spooner) at the same time as the police arrived with Eagle, but was he confusing the arrival of the public policemen, with the private ones?

[JeffHamm]

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Why didn't Baxter ask the obvious question...

Did you leave with your lady friend?

Was it because Baxter already knew the answer - that there was no lady friend with him? Also, how would Spooner have learnt that the PC's name was Lamb? Did Lamb announce his name to everyone in the yard, or did Spooner already know?

Sadly, we can never know the answer to such questions as the time is long since passed since we can make such direct inquiries as why people didn't do things we come up with, or how they found out some bit of information. I could see Lamb stating his name, as you suggest, or I could see Spooner learning it at some other time, etc. Who knows? As for Baxter, I think he had more important issues on his mind than worrying about lack of chivalry. Perhaps she did come to the scene, and while we don't have that information, Baxter did, but as she could offer no more information than Spooner, wasn't of interest to Baxter. Just a couple of thoughts that popped into my head now, and not suggesting they're anything but one of an infinite number of possible lines of speculation one could follow.

The presence of Mr Harris in the yard - possibly with a lantern, which would explain Spooner's amazing ability to make out that the shape on the ground was a woman, before a match had been struck - probably explains Diemschitz' confusion as to when the police arrived. Louis thought he arrived back (with Spooner) at the same time as the police arrived with Eagle, but was he confusing the arrival of the public policemen, with the private ones?

Maybe, that could make sense of things. We see PC Lamb mistaking Johnson for Blackwell after all. I rather suspect there was a great deal of confusion going on at the time, so hardly surprising the various statements are a bit of a jumble. It probably was a jumble of activity.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

.... Also, how would Spooner have learnt that the PC's name was Lamb? Did Lamb announce his name to everyone in the yard, or did Spooner already know?

PC Lamb gave his evidence directly prior to Spooner, so at the very least Spooner learned the PC's name minutes before he took the stand himself.

[GBinOz]

Hi Andrew,

There you go again, finding mysteries in unthought of places. Jon has answered your question about Lamb. Where did you get the idea that Harris accompanied deimshitz and Spooner to the yard?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

Sorry to pick up on this, pedantic details like the one above tend to tweak my interest.

It's not like Mike to make a definitive statement like that without some justification, though I wonder exactly how that could work.
H Division had 24 Fixed Point duties (two more lasted until 7:00 am), they range from the City border in the west to Wapping in the East, from Bethnal Green in the North down to the Docks. Unless there were at least 24 Sergeants on night duty how could they all be relieved at 1:00 am?

I've seen a list of rank & file for H Div. somewhere, I just can't recall at the moment how many Sergeants they had.

Hi Jon,

The list you are thinking of may be here:-

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/h-division-personnel.html

When I proposed that Lamb may have provided a time for Ayliffe to use to determine when he could be released, Herlock admonished me on the basis that Neil Bell had informed him that it was the duty the supervising sergeant to release fixed point officers, and that he had told me that on a previous ocassion. Both Herlock and I have question post's on "Ask Monty" so I assumed that Neil must have answered Herlock by PM. I am awaiting a reply from Neil to my post.

It is curious that searching the personnel list I can't find any record of Ayliffe. That name was provided by FrankO as coming from Neil. But the list acknowledges that is by no means exhaustive, so that would be the explanation.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Sadly, we can never know the answer to such questions as the time is long since passed since we can make such direct inquiries as why people didn't do things we come up with, or how they found out some bit of information. I could see Lamb stating his name, as you suggest, or I could see Spooner learning it at some other time, etc. Who knows? As for Baxter, I think he had more important issues on his mind than worrying about lack of chivalry. Perhaps she did come to the scene, and while we don't have that information, Baxter did, but as she could offer no more information than Spooner, wasn't of interest to Baxter. Just a couple of thoughts that popped into my head now, and not suggesting they're anything but one of an infinite number of possible lines of speculation one could follow.

Baxter may have had more important issues to be concerned with, than Spooner's apparent lack of chivalry, but what about Spooner himself? Why did he leave us (and the jury?) wondering what happened to the lady friend, or why she didn't rate a mention after he hastened to Berner street?

Spooner gave the impression that he was allowed to leave very early - before everyone else had been searched and questioned.

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Reid seems to immediately sense a problem, and jumps in...

Inspector Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes.

And had been searched? - Yes.

And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.

Imagine how it would have looked if Reid had not done so. So I think there is a case that Spooner was aloud to leave early, and I doubt this privilege would have been extended to his lady friend, had she been there.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

PC Lamb gave his evidence directly prior to Spooner, so at the very least Spooner learned the PC's name minutes before he took the stand himself.

Yeah, I guess it's possible they met in the waiting room. Spooner did not meet Harris at the inquest, so he must have already known him, unless they got talking together in the yard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

There you go again, finding mysteries in unthought of places. Jon has answered your question about Lamb. Where did you get the idea that Harris accompanied deimshitz and Spooner to the yard?

Cheers, George

George,
do you not think it more than a coincidence that of all the people who could have come out of their homes after hearing a police whistle, who Spooner could potentially have run into on his way to the yard, the only person was someone he seems to have known?

Harris wasn't in his home when the whistle was blown, he was outside. There were three Harris's known to have been members of the WVC. Spooner's Harris was one of them. He may well have been the early whistle blower, and of course he went to the yard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Wickerman,

I'm wondering if between the time the Standing Couple are last spotted at Fairclough and Berner, which seems to be by James Brown if he's misidentified the lady as Stride, and the search they moved up Fairclough towards Grove as far as Christian St. So, when the search starts 12-15 minutes after Brown sees them, they are now at F&C rather than F&B. No mention of is made of a couple being at F&B at the time of the search, so it appears they have left by then, but Fanny suggests she spoke to them at the crime scene, so they come back and probably weren't far away. I'm just wondering if F&C might be where they went, and while she may not have run with the men, she could have come along just behind them. We know more people showed up than get mentioned (i.e. nobody mentions Fanny arriving other than she herself as far as I'm aware).

I recognize Spooner's statements say he was at F&C the entire time, but it's not a great distance, and strolling about is not really unusual and could easily get omitted in his description, particularly if they moved just after Brown passes, so were at F&C for 12ish minutes. But the F&B standing couple seem to be missing at the time of the search, and appear to be there later, and low and behold, just up the street at F&C, we have a couple, who at least one of shows up at the crime scene, and the other we don't know, but as you say, would she really be left abandoned like that, or would she have been coming up behind the men and just not mentioned because, well, it's 1888.

It's entirely speculative, I know, but I don't think it's out of the range of reasonable possibilities. But, that doesn't mean I expect it to be universally accepted, nor even that I universally accept it myself. Just one of those things that occurred to me, but really, can probably never be resolved so could fall either way.

- Jeff

Spooner: One of the Jews struck a match and I lifted up the chin. I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm, as if chilled. Blood was still flowing from the throat.

Mortimer may have witnessed this...

A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

She then goes on to say...

A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

She seems to have not perceived the men she refers to, as being one and the same person.

Here's a more radical theory about Spooner.

J. Best, 82, Lower Chapman-street, said: I was in the Bricklayers' Arms, Settles-street, about two hundred yards from the scene of the murder on Saturday night, shortly before eleven, and saw a man and woman in the doorway. They had been served in the public house, and went out when me and my friends came in. It was raining very fast, and they did not appear willing to go out. He was hugging her and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on with the woman, who was poorly dressed. We "chipped" him, but he paid no attention. As he stood in the doorway he always threw sidelong glances into the bar, but would look nobody in the face. I said to him, "Why don't you bring the woman in and treat her?" but he made no answer. If he had been a straight fellow he would have told us to mind our own business, or he would have gone away. I was so certain that there was something up that I would have charged him if I could have seen a policeman. When the man could not stand the chaffing any longer he and the woman went off like a shot soon after eleven.

I had been to the mortuary, and am almost certain the woman there is the one we saw at the Bricklayers' Arms. She is the same slight woman, and seems the same height. The face looks the same, but a little paler, and the bridge of the nose does not look so prominent. The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. He had rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes. I should know the man again amongst a hundred. He had a thick black moustache and no beard. He wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar. I don't know the colour of his tie. I said to the woman "that's Leather Apron getting round you." The man was no foreigner; he was an Englishman right enough.

Where had Spooner claimed to have been with his female companion...?

We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time.

Same street, different pub, but a little later on. Smith tells us he was last in Berner street at 12:35. Spooner made an odd comment about the time...

I believe it was about 25 minutes to one o'clock when I ran round to the yard.

Spooner, Parcleman?

[JeffHamm]

Spooner: One of the Jews struck a match and I lifted up the chin. I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm, as if chilled. Blood was still flowing from the throat.

Mortimer may have witnessed this...

A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

She then goes on to say...

A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

She seems to have not perceived the men she refers to, as being one and the same person.

...

Hi NBFN,

Are those statements from the same or from different news reports?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Yeah, I guess it's possible they met in the waiting room. Spooner did not meet Harris at the inquest, so he must have already known him, unless they got talking together in the yard.

There are references in the testimony to "the previous witness", etc, from a few different statements. It doesn't appear witnesses were kept separate and could hear what other witnesses said. So, he could just have noted PC Lamb's name when he testified.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

George,
do you not think it more than a coincidence that of all the people who could have come out of their homes after hearing a police whistle, who Spooner could potentially have run into on his way to the yard, the only person was someone he seems to have known?

Harris wasn't in his home when the whistle was blown, he was outside. There were three Harris's known to have been members of the WVC. Spooner's Harris was one of them. He may well have been the early whistle blower, and of course he went to the yard.

Hi Andrew,

I have not read anything that would indicate that Spooner knew Harris, or whether Harris was inside or outside his home when he heard the whistle. He would hardly have been responding to a whistle that he blew himself, and I don't know of any reprot that says he was at the yard.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

I have not read anything that would indicate that Spooner knew Harris, or whether Harris was inside or outside his home when he heard the whistle. He would hardly have been responding to a whistle that he blew himself, and I don't know of any reprot that says he was at the yard.

Cheers, George

Spooner must have known Harris, because he referred to him by name.

The two men who who apparently heard and responded to the early whistle, Herschburg and Harris, knew a man who was on the street at the time of the murder - by sheer coincidence ... or not.

Mr Harris apparently said he responded to the whistle, but where was he at the time? Spooner said he met Harris on his way to the yard. He also said Harris came running after him. So when Spooner set off, was Harris behind him, or in front of him?

If Harris was not in the yard, then who are the men in the DN report I quoted in #2662? What do you suppose Harris did, if not go into the yard?

Was Spooner's lady friend in the yard? There is no report that states she was.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN,

Are those statements from the same or from different news reports?

- Jeff

Different. I just grabbed the Spooner quote from whatever relevant page I was on at the time.