If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ill just end this nonsense with this, until people discontinue a pattern of ignorance when it comes to corroborated witness accounts that do not match ones that are only the word of the witness for validation, this kind of stupid exchange will occur. I urge all people when it comes to this murder, to chart ALL the times given, match ones that are corroborative, and give credence to times by beat patrolmen. To have to argue over and over again that you cannot just throw away multiple matching stories because you believe a fellow named Jack killed a Canonical Group of Five.

its bleeding obvious that Stride wasnt killed by any kind of mutilator, though that doesnt stop the self serving arguments for his inclusion. Interruption....yeah right. Many matching witness vs a single non-validated account and Im getting an opinion here that the single non-validated account is the best one to use...again, hard to imagine that kind of logic, but its out there. Mr Herlock is doing that on every defensive post here.

Before anyone believes anything Herlock says regarding throwing out multiple corroborated stories and who we should really believe,..."Witnesses are key sources for obtaining evidence and corroboration. Neighbors, friends, and customers may have information and are probable witnesses at trial. Investigators should interview all of these people immediately to avoid the possibility that they might coordinate their stories to discount the victim’s experience and might destroy evidence. Prosecutors often issue grand jury subpoenas for all of the following potential witnesses to nail down their statements under oath and to avoid surprises at trial".

As you see, all the stories matter...whether they matter to Herlock or not. The only way to suss out what actually happened is to compare the stories. When there are matching stories, you have some degree of assurance. When cops give times, you use them. When people use clocks for times, you take them seriously too. Israel Schwartz provided the same amount of proof that his story was truthful than if he had said he saw a circus clown dancing with Stride on the street.

Ill let you go back to misinforming, misconstruing, misrepresenting, and missing the entire point Herlock, your tantrums dont add anything to what is essentially just holding your breath till you turn blue. Children think that can actually make some people change opinions....of course, it cant really.

Please find someone elses time to waste.

No tantrum from me Michael. I’m not the one calling some handicapped.

You’ve responded to none of the points about your joke theory I see. Then again you never do do you because you know what an embarrassing pile of tripe it is. You continue to use 2 witnesses and dishonestly claim them as multiple witnesses. You dishonestly claimed that Eagle called Gillman when it was the other way around and it happened at 1.00. Of course you haven’t had the decency to acknowledge this. I suppose we should be thankful that you’ve abandoned the invented witness Gillan.

Lamb is a perfect example of your manipulation of evidence. In the Times and Telegraph he said “around 1.00’ and “just before 1.00” which you try to twist to 12.50 for a bit of shoehorning. You dishonestly ignore the fact that he pointed out that he didn’t have a watch which anyone with a modicum of intelligence would take to mean that he was estimating his time (no mention of seeing a clock like Louis) but hey, you manipulate because you have too.

And talking of Diemschutz. Isn’t it convenient that you make a big point of no one seeing the Schwartz incident but you completely ignore the fact that not one person saw a man on a horse and cart with hooves echoing along the street. That’s fine though isn’t it. Missing a man on a horse and cart is possible but a thirty second incident, no way could hey have missed it This is the kind of biased bilge that you keep inflicting on us. And all the while you sit on your high horse claiming honesty! It’s staggering!

Go on then Michael. Will you finally answer? Why would these ‘plotters’ proceed with such a serious plot with such potentially serious ramifications when they hadn’t told everyone about it? People that they knew would be interviewed by the Police. Like Koz and Hosch. Louis returns with Spooner, knowing full well that he’ll be interviewed by the police and yet he forgets to say “by the way old chap, when the police ask, say that I met you around 1.00.”

Answer why he went through the streets shouting for a police officer, and then hoped and preyed that no one would here them and log the time?

Any answers? Those two points alone sink your theory stone dead.

Waffle all you like. Call me handicapped if that makes you happy. Call 2 ‘multiple’ if you think it’s relevant. Say it’s impossible to miss a 30 second incident but not impossible to miss a horse and cart. Twist, turn and lie all you like but you’re theory is dead. The two points above alone kill it but there’s more of course. I’m guessing that you won’t answer because you haven’t so far. Because there is no answer. It kills the theory.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Only police wore boots huh,.. your just full of wonders arent you?

WVC patrolmen wore galoshes.
A WVC patrolman was arguably the person who blew the 'early' whistle, which alerted Herschburg.
Was this patrolman on the scene of the crime in the 12:40-45 period?
The WVC was in the habit of sharing clues and other information with the police, so it seems very likely that this timing was one of the details that reached the police, in regards to Stride's murder.
What do suppose the police would have made of the discrepancy between this timing, and that of witnesses like Diemschitz?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Another brief point that I’d add is this. Any questions that you put to me like “why didn’t x see y then?” Or “why didn’t a, b or c hear d?” should also be imagined as being put to Abberline who was there and interviewed witnesses face to face and had access to all of the statements. So what would his responses have been? We can’t know of cours but I’m betting that it wouldn’t have been “oh yeah, I didn’t think of that.”

In general I'm wary of 'why didn't X see Y?' questions, because what is implicitly being suggested is; 'why didn't X say they saw Y?'. Why should X say they saw Y, if Y's behavior is not regarded as unusual or suspicious, or Y did not have more than a passing resemblance to the victim?

So for example, 'why didn't Fanny see Eagle?', doesn't bother me too much. However, 'why didn't Lave see Stride and Parcelman?', seems much more relevant.

Lave: I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

He should have seen three people at least, if he were on the street at the right time. Why didn't he? Perhaps he was in the yard and just missed them? Quite possible, but he surely could not have missed anyone entering the yard. So had Stride and companion gone around into Fairclough street?

Daily News: It also transpired that shortly before the man with the pony trap raised the alarm that a woman had been murdered. A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

Could these two have really missed seeing the other pair? Perhaps they arrived too late, and the 20 minute period was about 12:42 to 1:02. However, even if they were too late, they still had the opportunity to see Stride and PM, if the later two had stood anywhere near the bisecting thoroughfare. So perhaps Stride and companion had wandered back to roughly where Smith had seen them, and out of sight of the board school couple. After all, Stride has to be at the gateway by 12:45, doesn't she? Okay, so where is Lave and Mortimer, at this point? Both of them, to use Lave's words, "should have seen anybody moving about there".

Perhaps Lave's words are clue - Stride and PM never moved from the location they had been seen at by Smith, for at least a few minutes after. If that is true, it means that when Fanny opened her door, they appeared more or less right in front of her.

[c.d.]

The fact that Schwartz's story is uncorroborated by other witnesses has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he was telling the truth. His story is either true or it is not. I would venture to guess that pretty much everyone who posts here has witnessed something when no one else was around to confirm what they had seen. That in and of itself does not make what they saw untrue.

c.d.

[GBinOz]

Diemschutz at 1.00. Lamb/Eagle around 1.04/5. Smith around 1.05/06/ Diemschutz/Koz return with Spooner at approx 1.02. Spooners 5 mins before Lamb was more like 3. No need for any explanation as to why it took so long from arriving at the yard to getting to Blackwell’s because the gap is shorter. Smith’s 1.05/06 is within his normal round time taken from his previous passing at 12.30-12.35.

All that we need to ‘worry’ about is Lamb’s estimates. ‘Around 1.00’ and just before 1.00 points to no great gap of time before 1.00. Obvious some keep quoting one and ignoring the other but that’s to be expected here. It’s still an estimate though and he was at pains to explain that he didn’t own a watch. And as he didn’t mention checking a clock it’s reasonable to assume that he was mentioning this lack of a watch to show why he couldn’t be held to an exact time. As indeed he shouldn’t. A mere 5 minutes is nothing. Do we really believe that at any given point during a Constable’s round, if asked, he’d have been correct to less than 5 minutes every single time? That just can’t have been the case so being very slightly out should give no one any sleepless nights.

Its past time to stop with the mysteries. There were none. We know what happened.

Hi Herlock,

As you have said, we seem to disagree most of the time, but we have maintained an amicable dialogue, so I hope you will not be offendeded by a little friendly bagging.

I have accepted that you will not be deterred from taking the word of Diemshitz, who claimed (once) he saw a clock in the tobacconist window while negotiating his horse and cart across a major thorofare, over that of two police constables, one of whom would have been observing the clock from a few feet away, had he not averted his eyes. Your logic is that Diemshitz specifically said he saw a clock, therefore he did, and Lamb didn't specifically say he saw a clock, therefore he probably didn't. However, you then deny the logical extension, that Eagle specifically said he didn't look at the clock, therefore he didn't, and Koze and Hosch didn't specifically say that they didn't look at the clock, therefore they probably did. QED. The practice of "dismissing" witnesses purely because they don't fit your theories is not legitimate. Lamb had far more reason for looking at the tobacconist clock than Diemshitz. Eagle, Koze and Hosch were all in the club and had the opportunity of looking at the club clock. It is a fact that Eagle didn't. It is not a fact that Koze and Hosch didn't.

You next try to validate Eagle's guesstimate from a variable starting time and hour and a half before with alleged corroborating times from Wess and Gilleman. When Wess left the yard Stride was still alive. He wasn't there to testify to when the body was found. Gilleman said nothing about times - if you can point out a reference to him actually stating a time then I will stand corrected. Gilleman told Eagle that there was a body in the yard and Eagle guesstimated a time, and that time was the same time Diemshitz said he was at the tobacconist corner. When all your witnesses are stating that they were being called to see the body at "1:00",Diemshitz said he was still at the intersection, but invisible to Smith. I can only suggest that by proffering the Wess and Gilleman standard of "witness" support statements you jeopardise your credibilty with other posters/readers.

With regard to estimates, every time quoted that was not done while looking at a clock is an estimate. Police constables were trained in times, so if five minutes out for them is "nothing", then surely for the untrained such as Eagle, Spooner, and Brown ten to fifteen minutes in long estimates would be "nothing". If for just a moment you forget Diemshitz's alleged clock sighting and go with his "usual time of about one o'clock", and re-examine my timescale, taking into account the clock corrections, I would hope that you notice that it then fits most of the quoted times (approximately). That is what I was trying to achieve.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The fact that Schwartz's story is uncorroborated by other witnesses has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he was telling the truth. His story is either true or it is not. I would venture to guess that pretty much everyone who posts here has witnessed something when no one else was around to confirm what they had seen. That in and of itself does not make what they saw untrue.

c.d.

Other people were around

[GBinOz]

First off Louis and Koz as you put it didnt leave together, Louis left with Issac[s], and Issac K left by himself, later meeting Eagle on his way back. Eagle with Lamb. Before 1am.

Hi Michael,

I think you have made an error here, and Herlock has pinged you for it. Louis left with Jacobs, followed by Kozebrodski who was aso known as Issacs and Isaac K. I made a similar error a little while back and Herlock pointed that out quite graciously. I guess for Herlock we fall into different classes of enemy.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Nice work, George. Some comments...

12:34 - Wess & company leave, Letchford arrives, Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes), Eagle returns to the club, couple arrives at the corner of the board school, Stride & companion arrive opposite the club

In most papers, Wess leaves at 12:15
Letchford arrives/passes through the street. Doesn't quite gel, does it?
You have Lave outside as late as 12:44...

You overlooked the "<" indicating all these events over by that time.

12:34 - Smith sees Parcelman and Stride and is heard passing by FM.
12:35 - Parcelman and Stride cross into the yard just before FM arrives at her door. FM’s clock is running 10 minutes fast and shows 12:45.

...yet he apparently doesn't see what Smith sees?

12:45 - PM leaves door after locking up. Brown passes and sees the couple. Couple leaves. Schwartz turns into Berner St.

How did the couple end up talking to both Mortimer and the press? Same as everyone else - gathered around the yard after the police whistle.

12:46 - BSM and Schwartz arrive at the yard and BSM pulls Stride from the yard into the street. Schwartz crosses the road and proceeds to Fairclough St. Pipeman emerges, frightens Schwartz, BSM calls out Lipski. Pipeman and Schwartz depart to the south.
12:47 - 12:51 - Someone kills Stride
12:50 - Diemshitz turns into Berner St. Club clock is running 10 minutes slow and reads 12:40.
12:51 - Mortimer hears the cart pass. Diemshitz pulls into yard and horse shies.

How could it not be BS, given this timing? Diemschitz didn't see anyone leaving, and more importantly there was lots of blood to be seen very soon after his arrival. So the crude and raucous BS Man, must have been the killer, who very likely was not JtR. Thus Mitre Square must be a coincidence.

BSman, Pipeman or Parcelman or possibly, but unlikely, someone else from the club.

12:51 to 12:54 - Diemshitz prods Stride with whip, climbs down from cart, lights match and sees shape of woman, goes into club searching for his wife, locates candle and returns to discover the body, alerts those in the club who emerge and light matches to observe the body.

According to his wife, she was not hard to find at all - she was in the kitchen just a few yards from where he pulled up. Rather fascinatingly, when Louis comes out with the candle and others follow, the pony & cart seems to have disappeared.

Louis told the coroner the pony was in the yard just past the club door.

12:55 - Club members depart the yard looking for police. Club clock reads 12:45.
12:57 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard.
12:58– Lamb is standing over body.

What about Spooner? 12:58 - 5 = 12:52
Mortimer appears to reach the yard before any police. So this must occur at 12:56 or 57. She said she went out just after 1am. That is a difference of 5 minutes, not the 10 minutes you assumed @12:35. 5 minutes would have her outside until 12:50, in full view of the Schwartz incident. It would also have her locking up at the same time as Diemschitz turned into Berner street.

Walter Dew: Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

Don't underestimate Walter.

1:00 - Smith arrives at the Berner St/Commercial Road corner and proceeds to yard.
1:01 - Lamb sends Constable for doctor and sends Eagle to Leman St PS.
1:03 - Johnson is alerted, goes to alert Blackwell, whose pocket watch is running fast and reads 1:10

Eagle reached Leman street at 1:10, according to one report. That means Lamb takes 9 minutes to get there. Possibly too long, although one has to consider things such as:

* he had already been running, and may have needed to go slow and/or stop to catch his breath
* he may have had footwear that really impeded his progress
* there may have been a short wait when he reached the station

Or police time at Berner St was slightly out of sync with PS telegraph GMT.

1:06 - Johnson arrives at yard and is mistaken for Blackwell by Lamb and Diemshitz.

I think that is true.

1:07 – Johnston opens Stride’s collar and begins to examine body. Lamb closes gates.
1:09 - Blackwell arrives at yard, finds gates closed. Pocket watch is running fast and shows 1:16. Finds Stride’s collar is open. Blackwell estimates Stride has been dead 20 minutes to half hour:- i.e. TOD of about 12:40 to 12:50 Police time.

A murderer leaving the yard at 12:50, must have escaped the attention of Letchford's sister ... if Letchford is to be believed.
This is before the alarm was raised. Seeing "nothing unusual" is the key. We have no idea of Letchford's sister's time zone estimate.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

12:55 - Club members depart the yard looking for police. Club clock reads 12:45.
12:57 - Lamb is alerted in Commercial Road and proceeds to the yard.
12:58– Lamb is standing over body.

What about Spooner? 12:58 - 5 = 12:52
Mortimer appears to reach the yard before any police. So this must occur at 12:56 or 57. She said she went out just after 1am. That is a difference of 5 minutes, not the 10 minutes you assumed @12:35. 5 minutes would have her outside until 12:50, in full view of the Schwartz incident. It would also have her locking up at the same time as Diemschitz turned into Berner street.

Walter Dew: Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

Don't underestimate Walter.

Hi Andrew,

Missed some replies in my last post.

Spooner said he arrived at the yard five minutes before Lamb, but Diemshitz, who was with Spooner said he arrived back at the yard as Lamb arrived. These were estimates and, as I said my times are approximate. Same applies to Mortimer. With regard to your quote from Walter dew, as you know IMO there were two women at their doors who saw Goldstein. One saw him headed north and the other headed south. We don't know to which woman Dew was referring.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

This is a photo of Commercial Road from the 1880's sourced from here: http://www.stgitehistory.org.uk/medi...lroad1899.html

The Harris tobacconist is the building on the extreme left with the two lamps outside. Louis would have been turning his cart into Berner St from about where the man is standing to the right of the cart with the missing wheel. That would have been his best observation point as the angle would have become more oblique as he turned into Berner St. Note the facade of the tobacconist building with the multiple masonary pillars. The glass window front would have been behind those pillars and the clock behind the glass. The clock would have been small enough to be observed though the gap in the pillars. It is obvious that the clock would not have been visible to anyone unless they were almost directly in front of it.

Louis could not have seen this clock from his cart in the middle of Commercial Road. He was lying. So let's have no more citing of his exact time of 1:00.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You overlooked the "<" indicating all these events over by that time.

Overlooked while half asleep. Sorry about that.

Same as everyone else - gathered around the yard after the police whistle.

So this must be wrong...

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

Was Fanny lying?

BSman, Pipeman or Parcelman or possibly, but unlikely, someone else from the club.

So BS roughed her up, but possibly someone else killed her, very soon afterwards? I'm not sure how that is supposed to work, especially given that Pipeman has run off, and Parcelman is supposedly on a date with Stride. On the other hand, if Parcelman is on a date with Stride, where did he go, and what's in the parcel?

Louis told the coroner the pony was in the yard just past the club door.

He also told him something about his arrival time.

Or police time at Berner St was slightly out of sync with PS telegraph GMT.

Haven't you been arguing that police time was coordinated? You have Lamb by the body at 12:58, who told the coroner that he sent the men off, immediately after witnessing the deceased. So you're giving Eagle about 11 minutes to reach Leman street station, unless Leman street is out of sync (and that means it could be longer).

This is before the alarm was raised. Seeing "nothing unusual" is the key. We have no idea of Letchford's sister's time zone estimate.

That doesn't mean we can assume the 12:50 to be way off. Supposedly the sister saw no one pass. Presumably that includes not seeing anyone pass in through their front door.

Spooner said he arrived at the yard five minutes before Lamb, but Diemshitz, who was with Spooner said he arrived back at the yard as Lamb arrived. These were estimates and, as I said my times are approximate. Same applies to Mortimer.

So Spooner's 5 minutes is wiped out, in favor of Diemschitz, who lied about the clock time?

With regard to your quote from Walter dew, as you know IMO there were two women at their doors who saw Goldstein. One saw him headed north and the other headed south. We don't know to which woman Dew was referring.

I'm not sure if I do know that, George. As for Dew...

Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes.

This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer.

I wonder if Dew's claim has been mentioned in any JtR book or doco?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Louis could not have seen this clock from his cart in the middle of Commercial Road. He was lying. So let's have no more citing of his exact time of 1:00.

What is the other side of the lying coin?

DSS: 12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz ... stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.	AF: The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.
LD: On Saturday I left home about half-past 11 in the morning and returned home exactly at 1 a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road.	AF: At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body.

Diemschitz wants a clean gap to be supposed, between an incident on the street that may be connected to the murder, and his discovery of the body. That gap has been pondered ever since, yet in reality, things were a lot murkier and closely spaced.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

As you have said, we seem to disagree most of the time, but we have maintained an amicable dialogue, so I hope you will not be offendeded by a little friendly bagging.

I have accepted that you will not be deterred from taking the word of Diemshitz, who claimed (once) he saw a clock in the tobacconist window while negotiating his horse and cart across a major thorofare, over that of two police constables, one of whom would have been observing the clock from a few feet away, had he not averted his eyes. Your logic is that Diemshitz specifically said he saw a clock, therefore he did, and Lamb didn't specifically say he saw a clock, therefore he probably didn't. However, you then deny the logical extension, that Eagle specifically said he didn't look at the clock, therefore he didn't, and Koze and Hosch didn't specifically say that they didn't look at the clock, therefore they probably did. QED. The practice of "dismissing" witnesses purely because they don't fit your theories is not legitimate. Lamb had far more reason for looking at the tobacconist clock than Diemshitz. Eagle, Koze and Hosch were all in the club and had the opportunity of looking at the club clock. It is a fact that Eagle didn't. It is not a fact that Koze and Hosch didn't.

You next try to validate Eagle's guesstimate from a variable starting time and hour and a half before with alleged corroborating times from Wess and Gilleman. When Wess left the yard Stride was still alive. He wasn't there to testify to when the body was found. Gilleman said nothing about times - if you can point out a reference to him actually stating a time then I will stand corrected. Gilleman told Eagle that there was a body in the yard and Eagle guesstimated a time, and that time was the same time Diemshitz said he was at the tobacconist corner. When all your witnesses are stating that they were being called to see the body at "1:00",Diemshitz said he was still at the intersection, but invisible to Smith. I can only suggest that by proffering the Wess and Gilleman standard of "witness" support statements you jeopardise your credibilty with other posters/readers.

With regard to estimates, every time quoted that was not done while looking at a clock is an estimate. Police constables were trained in times, so if five minutes out for them is "nothing", then surely for the untrained such as Eagle, Spooner, and Brown ten to fifteen minutes in long estimates would be "nothing". If for just a moment you forget Diemshitz's alleged clock sighting and go with his "usual time of about one o'clock", and re-examine my timescale, taking into account the clock corrections, I would hope that you notice that it then fits most of the quoted times (approximately). That is what I was trying to achieve.

Cheers, George

I think, and have said, that although asa general rule a Constable was more like to (and had more reason to) be aware of the time as they would have regularly checked this during the course of a day or nights work. Like everything though George we can’t make this a hard and fast rule and we have to judge it on the individual circumstances. Just because someone might have had the opportunity of doing something it doesn’t follow that they actually did it. Koz and Hosch are a case in point. Michael uses the fact that there was a clock in the club to strengthen the case for the accuracy of the times that they gave. He assumes that they saw a clock close to the time that the body was discovered but the language used tells a different tale. “Around 1.00 I should think,” quite clearly speaks of a man who is expresses no great confidence in the accuracy of his estimation.

As for Morris Eagle, I have to ask first where you get your ‘hour and a half before’ from George. Yes I accept of course that Eagle specifically said that he didn’t look at the club clock. So, on the issue of the club clock Eagle, Koz and Hosch are all in the same boat. No argument from me. So all that I or anyone can do is to look at it dispassionately and see if there’s any reason to trust one over the other. And even if there is George then of course we still can’t claim it as a fact (it’s simply points in the ‘for’ or ‘against’ columns) The thing that I keep coming back to George is ‘reason for checking the time.’ Koz and Hosch, when called to the body, had no reason for checking the time whereas Eagle, at least, had reason for noting the time less than an hour ago when he had to walk his girl home. Not proof of course and I’m not claiming it as such.

The problem that I have is we appear to have to try and come up with a reason why Diemschutz must have been wrong? Why shouldn’t we work from the very simple premise that Diemschutz saw a clock and confidently stated the time. In most case the police would have accepted this (after checking the synchronicity of the clock of course) Why isn’t a version of events which stem from 1.00 equally valid? Especially when this time of 1.00 is supported by others? Why is it something to be avoided simply to suggest that Diemschutz was correct in the time that he arrived? That Eagle was correct in the approximate time that he was called to the yard? That Brown was correct in the approximate time that he heard Diemschutz calling for a Constable? That Sarah Diemschutz wasn’t ‘lying to protect her plotting husband?’ That neither were the club servants, or Wess or Minsky? And that the short distance from the yard to the Doctors supports a later discovery time or else we have to explain an inexplicable delay in the Doctor being called?

On the question of Lamb. We’re probably never going to agree on this one George but as I said earlier, yes I agree on the ‘Constable times’ rule but I still maintain that this can’t be set-in-sand and has to be judged individually. I await a call of bias here but I’m not. We simply have to assess individual circumstances George and we cannot assume that a Constable would have been able to have given a spot-on accurate time at any point that he was asked. We have to ask ourselves why an officer that has just passed Diemschutz clock was at pains to tell that he didn’t own a watch? This is important imo (and a good point by Caz) How else can we interpret this in any other way than he was pre-warning that he couldn’t be held to a spot-on time. That his estimation could have been slightly out. I can’t see how this is in any way a controversial point George and I certainly can’t see how it can be considered as any kind of manipulation. We have a Constable quite clearly telling us not to hold him to too accurate an estimate. And, again as Caz said, why didn’t he simply mention seeing the clock? So he doesn’t mention seeing a clock but he does mention that he didn’t have a watch. As far as I’m concerned it’s impossible to interpret this in any other way than Lamb was telling us that is estimate could have been slightly out. And when we look at the to weightiest newspapers, The Times and The Telegraph we get ‘around 1.00’ and ‘just before 1.00.’ So nothing for me negates the very obvious possibility that Eagle met Lamb some time after 1.00.

Ive no real issue with your timeline George. We’re all estimating and interpreting. All that I’m saying is that, whilst we can propose a time gap due to clock error, we aren’t compelled to. We can still come up with a workable timeline from Diemschutz at 1.00.

[GBinOz]

Overlooked while half asleep. Sorry about that.



So this must be wrong...

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

Was Fanny lying? FM didn't know what time Stride was murdered.



So BS roughed her up, but possibly someone else killed her, very soon afterwards? I'm not sure how that is supposed to work, especially given that Pipeman has run off, and Parcelman is supposedly on a date with Stride. On the other hand, if Parcelman is on a date with Stride, where did he go, and what's in the parcel?
We don't know how far Pipeman ran after Schwartz, just that it wasn't to the arches. My opinion is not very far, just far enough to see Schwartz off. Don't know where Parcelman went, but could guess and say back to the club for whatever purpose. I think the parcel was political literature. Wess said at the inquest "Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there".


He also told him something about his arrival time.



Haven't you been arguing that police time was coordinated? You have Lamb by the body at 12:58, who told the coroner that he sent the men off, immediately after witnessing the deceased. So you're giving Eagle about 11 minutes to reach Leman street station, unless Leman street is out of sync (and that means it could be longer). Police stations were co-ordinated via telegraph. I don't know if and how this was transferred to the field. That is the question I posed to Monty. Also, Lamb would have been pretty busy when he arrived and may have delayed sending Eagle by a few minutes. I did stipulate that my time were approximate.



That doesn't mean we can assume the 12:50 to be way off. Supposedly the sister saw no one pass. Presumably that includes not seeing anyone pass in through their front door.



So Spooner's 5 minutes is wiped out, in favor of Diemschitz, who lied about the clock time?
Two conflicting testimonies. Can't both be right. Pick whichever one you like.


I'm not sure if I do know that, George. As for Dew...

Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes.

This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer.

I wonder if Dew's claim has been mentioned in any JtR book or doco?

Hi Andrew,

I was trying to construct a timeline, including suggested clock corrections, that disagrees with as few statements as possible, but some statements are going to be contradictory. As I said before, it is easy to snipe at others timeline, and to present leading questions. Let us all see your full proposal.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

I think, and have said, that although asa general rule a Constable was more like to (and had more reason to) be aware of the time as they would have regularly checked this during the course of a day or nights work. Like everything though George we can’t make this a hard and fast rule and we have to judge it on the individual circumstances. Just because someone might have had the opportunity of doing something it doesn’t follow that they actually did it. Koz and Hosch are a case in point. Michael uses the fact that there was a clock in the club to strengthen the case for the accuracy of the times that they gave. He assumes that they saw a clock close to the time that the body was discovered but the language used tells a different tale. “Around 1.00 I should think,” quite clearly speaks of a man who is expresses no great confidence in the accuracy of his estimation.

As for Morris Eagle, I have to ask first where you get your ‘hour and a half before’ from George. Yes I accept of course that Eagle specifically said that he didn’t look at the club clock. So, on the issue of the club clock Eagle, Koz and Hosch are all in the same boat. No argument from me. So all that I or anyone can do is to look at it dispassionately and see if there’s any reason to trust one over the other. And even if there is George then of course we still can’t claim it as a fact (it’s simply points in the ‘for’ or ‘against’ columns) The thing that I keep coming back to George is ‘reason for checking the time.’ Koz and Hosch, when called to the body, had no reason for checking the time whereas Eagle, at least, had reason for noting the time less than an hour ago when he had to walk his girl home. Not proof of course and I’m not claiming it as such.

The problem that I have is we appear to have to try and come up with a reason why Diemschutz must have been wrong? Why shouldn’t we work from the very simple premise that Diemschutz saw a clock and confidently stated the time. In most case the police would have accepted this (after checking the synchronicity of the clock of course) Why isn’t a version of events which stem from 1.00 equally valid? Especially when this time of 1.00 is supported by others? Why is it something to be avoided simply to suggest that Diemschutz was correct in the time that he arrived? That Eagle was correct in the approximate time that he was called to the yard? That Brown was correct in the approximate time that he heard Diemschutz calling for a Constable? That Sarah Diemschutz wasn’t ‘lying to protect her plotting husband?’ That neither were the club servants, or Wess or Minsky? And that the short distance from the yard to the Doctors supports a later discovery time or else we have to explain an inexplicable delay in the Doctor being called?

On the question of Lamb. We’re probably never going to agree on this one George but as I said earlier, yes I agree on the ‘Constable times’ rule but I still maintain that this can’t be set-in-sand and has to be judged individually. I await a call of bias here but I’m not. We simply have to assess individual circumstances George and we cannot assume that a Constable would have been able to have given a spot-on accurate time at any point that he was asked. We have to ask ourselves why an officer that has just passed Diemschutz clock was at pains to tell that he didn’t own a watch? This is important imo (and a good point by Caz) How else can we interpret this in any other way than he was pre-warning that he couldn’t be held to a spot-on time. That his estimation could have been slightly out. I can’t see how this is in any way a controversial point George and I certainly can’t see how it can be considered as any kind of manipulation. We have a Constable quite clearly telling us not to hold him to too accurate an estimate. And, again as Caz said, why didn’t he simply mention seeing the clock? So he doesn’t mention seeing a clock but he does mention that he didn’t have a watch. As far as I’m concerned it’s impossible to interpret this in any other way than Lamb was telling us that is estimate could have been slightly out. And when we look at the to weightiest newspapers, The Times and The Telegraph we get ‘around 1.00’ and ‘just before 1.00.’ So nothing for me negates the very obvious possibility that Eagle met Lamb some time after 1.00.

Ive no real issue with your timeline George. We’re all estimating and interpreting. All that I’m saying is that, whilst we can propose a time gap due to clock error, we aren’t compelled to. We can still come up with a workable timeline from Diemschutz at 1.00.

Hi Herlock,

We know there was a clock in the club and there is a likelyhood that Koz and Hosch may have looked at it before the discovery of the body. We also know for sure that Eagle didn't. So they are not in the same boat at all. Eagle told the coroner "between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home", so if he "had reason for noting the time less than an hour ago when he had to walk his girl home" he again failed to take the opportunity. Eagle had no idea of the time. Nor did Brown. I notice you are still offering Wess, the man who wasn't there, as a support for Diemshitz's time. Can you explain this please? You are asking that we just accept the times that support Diemshitz and just dismiss any other times.

Lamb was being very clear with his times when responding to the coroner. He said he didn't have a pocket watch to make it clear that he was estimating from the last time he saw a clock. He responded to Reid's question by replying that he had been at the intersection of Commercial and Berner, the location of the Harris clock, some six to seven minutes before he arrived at the yard. In that time he had walked from the Harris clock to the fixed point, and was on his way back when summoned by Eagle and Koze. The fixed point constable wasn't with him (he followed after) so it wasn't yet 1:00. Your estimate would require us to accept that he was five minutes out in an estimate of 6-7 minutes and this cannot be entertained. There is only a minute variation in his estimate because he had seen that clock only a short time before. Reid and the Coroner knew what he was saying because they knew there was a clock at that location. They didn't need to be spoon fed by him telling them something so obvious. It would never have entered their heads that he wouldn't have looked at a clock that was so clearly available.

Looking at the historic photo that I posted earlier, are you still insisting that Diemshitz could have seen the clock from that angle past those masonary pillars. They are at least a brick wide and two bricks deep, and with the 20 foot frontage about two feet apart. Not a chance that he saw the clock behind all that, not physically possible. But we can still come up with a workable timeline from Diemschutz at about 1.00.

As I explained to Andrew, I tried to construct a timeline, and include some proposed clock corrections, that would disagree with as few testimonies as possible, and I did stipulate the times were approximate. However, there are some conflicts that just can't be resolved and have to be written off as errors or lies. Smith and Lamb were on foot and had a direct view of the clock. Diemshitz could not have seen the clock from his cart. He may have lied, or he may just have convinced himself that he would've seen the clock. But he didn't.

Cheers, George