If Schwartz Lied ...

[JeffHamm]

I posed this question to Herlock in a previous post and now I'd like to throw the question to everyone. Without referring to any clock times at all, what would a reasonable interval of time be for
Start: Diemshitz to drive down Berner St from the corner, turn into the yard, halt his pony after it shied, prod about with his whip, alight from the cart and light a match, shift the pony up near the door, run inside searching for his wife, alert club members, return with Kozebrodski, light another match and inspect Stride's injury, brief discuss who is going where to raise the alarm and
Finish: exit the gateway raising the alarm?

My opinion would be about 5-6 minutes.

Cheers, George

Hmmm, 5-6 minutes seems a bit long to me. To get from the corner to the yard would take about 1 minute, it's not that far, and a pony and cart go about 4 mph, so faster than walking. But, to stop, lean over, poke with his whip, get down and check, is probably about 20 seconds being generous. Move the pony up and go in, not long at all, probably 10 seconds. His wife was in the kitchen, so he saw her at that point, told people present what he saw, so they're back out side, probably around the 2 minute mark. They're rushing out to see what's what, and so probably by 2 minutes 30, the hunt for the police begins. I can't see it taking a full 5-6 minutes, we're getting into the amount of time required for the Eddowes murder with that, and I don't think Deimshitz's activities required anywhere near that long.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, it just means it is not definitive proof the clock was chiming, it still may have. In other words, it's also not proof that would allow the claim the clock didn't strike one. And whether or not the clock chimed, doesn't change Diemshitz's testimony that he checked the time by the clock, and it was 1 o'clock when he did so. Chiming or not doesn't change the position of the hands.

- Jeff

So the reference to the chiming clock could be figurative (as Caz suggested), or it could be literal. Presumably Smith did not hear this clock chime, even though some reporters have him very near that clock at 1am. So either Diemschitz told the reporter that he heard it chime, or Diemschitz told the reporter the same as he told the coroner, and the reference to chiming was just a figurative way of describing it.

Was the tobacconists clock a public or private clock? Did it sit behind a window, or face the elements? Has it been definitively ascertained to have been clearly visible to a nighttime passer-by, other than by simply accepting Diemschitz at his word?

It seems very odd to me that Smith would have walked right past that clock - having seen the crowd at the gates from Commercial Road - and not looked at it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Any one know the location of Spectacle Lane in 1888's London?

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/general-victim-discussion/759435-the-double-event?p=759774#post759774

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

No, Marshall didn't mention an actual clock just a series of o'clocks.

He didn't mention a clock explicitly, but he either had a superb sense of time, or the following is a reference to an observed and/or heard clock...

It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

I have just re-read his testimony. He saw a couple for 10 minutes starting 11:45 (guessed time) at which stage he said "They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street. They would not then pass No. 40 (the club).". They were three houses away and the nearest lamp was 20 feet from them. He didn't see Liz's flower and his description of the man - middle aged, wearing a cap doesn't match Smith. The coroner was so exasperated with his description he said "Is that the best suggestion you can make? - It is.".

Smith's man had a parcel. Why suppose Marshall's man was also parcel man?
He described the man as having the appearance of a clerk - same as Packer did. If the lighting was poor then what more could the coroner expect?
I agree about the flower. However, there must have been some possibility that the man was standing in front of the woman - Marshall did not see his face. Interestingly though, Marshall said; She did not then have a flower in her breast. Does that mean he had a good enough view, such that he would have seen one if she were wearing one? Perhaps she changed flowers during the evening? Packer is quoted as saying she were playing with a white flower, not a red or red and white one.

Then this incoherant gobbledygook:
"[Coroner] Did you hear anything more that night? - Not till I heard that the murder had taken place, just after one o'clock. While I was standing at my door, from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all. The deceased had on a small black bonnet. The couple were standing between my house and the club for about ten minutes.
Detective-Inspector Reid: Then they passed you? - Yes.
A Juror: Did you not see the man's face as he passed? - No; he was looking towards the woman, and had his arm round her neck. There is a gas lamp at the corner of Boyd-street. It was not closing time when they passed me."

You're not convinced by the reference to a small black bonnet?

I also re-read the testimony of Brown.

"[Coroner] Did you notice any flower in her dress? - No.
[Coroner] What were they doing? - He was standing with his arm against the wall; she was inclined towards his arm, facing him, and with her back to the wall.
[Coroner] Did you notice the man? - I saw that he had a long dark coat on.
[Coroner] An overcoat? - Yes; it seemed so.
[Coroner] Had he a hat or a cap on? - I cannot say.
[Coroner] You are sure it was not her dress that you chiefly noticed? - Yes. I saw nothing light in colour about either of them.
[Coroner] Was it raining at the time? - No. I went on.
[Coroner] Did you hear anything more? - When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. I did not look at any clock at the chandler's shop. I arrived home first at ten minutes past twelve o'clock, and I believe it was not raining then."

So he didn't see a flower, couldn't even tell if the man had anything on his head and his timing was a series of added guesses started from when he guessed he got home. He didn't see Stride - he saw the couple Mortimer saw at that exact spot and later engaged in conversation.

Totally agree.

Compare the above stuff and nonsense with the testimonies of of Kozebrodski, Heshberg and the much maligned Packer, which are far more coherent and believable.

Cheers, George

I'm curious about what time Kozebrodski entered the club. There are conflicting reports.

Herschburg has a wealth of information about the club, the discovery, and the state of the victim. He even knows about the Joseph Koster discovery story, and possibly the man himself. He is almost like an amateur spy.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I posed this question to Herlock in a previous post and now I'd like to throw the question to everyone. Without referring to any clock times at all, what would a reasonable interval of time be for
Start: Diemshitz to drive down Berner St from the corner, turn into the yard, halt his pony after it shied, prod about with his whip, alight from the cart and light a match, shift the pony up near the door, run inside searching for his wife, alert club members, return with Kozebrodski, light another match and inspect Stride's injury, brief discuss who is going where to raise the alarm and
Finish: exit the gateway raising the alarm?

My opinion would be about 5-6 minutes.

Cheers, George

It depends on how much of Arbeter Fraint's take is accepted.

Also, what is this "Arbeter Fraint" of which you speak?

Arbeter Fraint's Take - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[DJA]

Arbeter Fraynd - Wikipedia

[drstrange169]

Off Topic !!!

Hello George,

In Melbourne we've been through four lockdowns, but I'd happily endure many more than go through a bushfire. Hopefully you never come close to one again.

[drstrange169]

>> ... the clock struck one ...<<

NEW THEORY ALERT!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you underestimate the amount of time between Louis' arrival, and the commencement of the police search. This is evident in Arbeter Fraint. There was lots of running around and indecision.



You didn't tell me how PC Collins managed to arrive at the scene before Smith. Did he hear the early, unaccounted for whistle? You know, the one that suggests a pre-1am discovery time.

I guess you could solve the problem by suggesting Collins responded to Lamb's whistle, but that would require Smith arriving a good few minutes after Lamb. That places Smith (according to your timing estimate), last passing the yard at shortly before a quarter to one.

Alternatively, if Collins did respond to the mystery whistle and arrived very soon after Lamb, then the policeman seen by James Brown through his window, must have been Edward Spooner.

Either way, the situation begs for an explanation. Let's see what you can come up with...

We don’t know how Collins arrived because they didn’t record every single minute detail of everything that occurred on that night including individual thought processes. Collins plays such an important role that he doesn’t even merit a mention in The Sourcebook! I realise of course that this explains why we can almost hear the glee behind your words as you type them. The ‘c’ word looms as ever.

I can’t even find where Collins was mentioned but I’m ok with accepting that he got to the yard before Smith. Can I say how Collins got there? No, but neither can you. It’s an unknown. We can speculate of course. Might he have heard Diemschutz and Kozebrodski yelling for a Constable? Might he simply have heard Lamb’s whistle when he blew it from the yard and he was very nearby and so got there before Smith? Might Lamb have blown his whistle in Commercial Road, after Eagle reached him, to get Ayliffe’s (and any other PC within earshot’ s) attention. In fact, is it that difficult to imagine him blowing his whistle when hearing of a murdered woman? The fact that he didn’t mention it isn’t much of a point as it would have been such a normal, not worth mentioning, thing to have done.

….

You continue to try and manipulate things to suit your own thinking. Why do you make statements like “a good few minutes after Lamb,” when you talk about Smith. And “shortly before a quarter to one.” Your conclusion, as ever, is based on a falsehood. Collins could easily have arrived a matter of seconds before Smith.”

……

I realise of course that you’re reluctant to allow for any margin-for-error on timings or for the fact that the residents of Victorian Whitechapel didn’t get together in enormous crowds so that they could synchronise their watches and clocks but the rest of us accept this as entirely reasonable and necessary. So did the Police check Harris’ clock? I don’t think that we have any record of this so it’s reasonable to assume not. So that clock might well have been a couple of minutes fast. So it is possible that Diemschutz, whilst honestly quoting 1.00, might actually have arrived at the yard a minute or two before 1.00. That minute or two makes quite a difference when we look at a timeline. Timings that appear tight loosen up.

To throw any doubt on the accepted version of evident you need to come up with something far more than quibbles and nitpicking. More than things that can be plausibly explained by making the allowances on timing that I keep mentioning (ditto Joshua, ditto Caz, ditto Frank.) More than differences in wording in various Press reports. Neither you, nor Michael nor any poster have thrown up anything that even comes close to putting a dent in the established version of events. We’ve had Michael’s staggeringly ridiculous ‘evidence of absence’ point. We had the nonsense suggestion that Schwartz wasn’t called to give evidence because the Police or the Coroner mistrusted him completely and forensically destroyed by David Orsam. We’ve had Fanny Mortimer proclaimed as the proof that Schwartz wasn’t there, completely ignoring what she said in the EN and the possibility of Smith being correct. When is this going to sink in?

There was no cover-up. Diemschutz told the truth and whilst there are minor things that will always remain unanswered we can say with confidence that there was no mystery in Berner Street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
That Mortimer saw Goldstein twice

Rubbish.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock,

We've just had a discussion about the inaccuracy of Victorian clocks which you named a banner moment and I agree. But you can't have a logiacal progression to prove a statement is fact by starting the progression with the statement is fact. That is a logical fallacy. You are then supporting your argument by using statements from people when you don't know how long it has been since they actually saw an inherently inaccurate clock. There is nowhere where a clock is even mentioned as being in the Club. I'm sure you would point this out to me if I responded by saying that Kozebrodski said that Diemshitz called him to the yard at 12:40. I based my timeline on an event - the coroner's time for the Smith-Stride encounter which he set at 12:30 and the times fit with some witness statements but not others. But I'm flexible. If you present convincing evidence I will be persuaded. You just haven't, IMHO, done that yet.

Cheers, George

I do recall a quote somewhere that said that there was a clock in the club. I think that it was in connection to Eagle who didn’t look at it. I might be mid-remembering though.

How could the Coroner predict when Smith saw Stride? You’ll have to explain that one please George.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No, it just means it is not definitive proof the clock was chiming, it still may have. In other words, it's also not proof that would allow the claim the clock didn't strike one. And whether or not the clock chimed, doesn't change Diemshitz's testimony that he checked the time by the clock, and it was 1 o'clock when he did so. Chiming or not doesn't change the position of the hands.

- Jeff

Welcome to the rabbit-hole Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I posed this question to Herlock in a previous post and now I'd like to throw the question to everyone. Without referring to any clock times at all, what would a reasonable interval of time be for
Start: Diemshitz to drive down Berner St from the corner, turn into the yard, halt his pony after it shied, prod about with his whip, alight from the cart and light a match, shift the pony up near the door, run inside searching for his wife, alert club members, return with Kozebrodski, light another match and inspect Stride's injury, brief discuss who is going where to raise the alarm and
Finish: exit the gateway raising the alarm?

My opinion would be about 5-6 minutes.

Cheers, George

2 minutes tops. At a stretch with people moving around as if they were under water.

He didn’t need to ‘search’ for his wife as she was in the kitchen just inside the door. There was also a downstairs room with members in which meant that he only needed to standing in the doorway for 2 seconds to say ‘there’s a body in the yard.’ They go out into the yard when barely a minute would have passed since he’d arrived back. There was no need for a discussion. He and Koz turn night and go for a Constable, Eagle turns left.

Add to this the fact that Harris’s clock might have been fast for all that we know. In reality it might have been 1.01 when he went for the police.

[DJA]

[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We don’t know how Collins arrived because they didn’t record every single minute detail of everything that occurred on that night including individual thought processes. Collins plays such an important role that he doesn’t even merit a mention in The Sourcebook! I realise of course that this explains why we can almost hear the glee behind your words as you type them. The ‘c’ word looms as ever.

I can’t even find where Collins was mentioned but I’m ok with accepting that he got to the yard before Smith. Can I say how Collins got there? No, but neither can you. It’s an unknown. We can speculate of course. Might he have heard Diemschutz and Kozebrodski yelling for a Constable? Might he simply have heard Lamb’s whistle when he blew it from the yard and he was very nearby and so got there before Smith? Might Lamb have blown his whistle in Commercial Road, after Eagle reached him, to get Ayliffe’s (and any other PC within earshot’ s) attention. In fact, is it that difficult to imagine him blowing his whistle when hearing of a murdered woman? The fact that he didn’t mention it isn’t much of a point as it would have been such a normal, not worth mentioning, thing to have done.

….

You continue to try and manipulate things to suit your own thinking. Why do you make statements like “a good few minutes after Lamb,” when you talk about Smith. And “shortly before a quarter to one.” Your conclusion, as ever, is based on a falsehood. Collins could easily have arrived a matter of seconds before Smith.”

……

I realise of course that you’re reluctant to allow for any margin-for-error on timings or for the fact that the residents of Victorian Whitechapel didn’t get together in enormous crowds so that they could synchronise their watches and clocks but the rest of us accept this as entirely reasonable and necessary. So did the Police check Harris’ clock? I don’t think that we have any record of this so it’s reasonable to assume not. So that clock might well have been a couple of minutes fast. So it is possible that Diemschutz, whilst honestly quoting 1.00, might actually have arrived at the yard a minute or two before 1.00. That minute or two makes quite a difference when we look at a timeline. Timings that appear tight loosen up.

To throw any doubt on the accepted version of evident you need to come up with something far more than quibbles and nitpicking. More than things that can be plausibly explained by making the allowances on timing that I keep mentioning (ditto Joshua, ditto Caz, ditto Frank.) More than differences in wording in various Press reports. Neither you, nor Michael nor any poster have thrown up anything that even comes close to putting a dent in the established version of events. We’ve had Michael’s staggeringly ridiculous ‘evidence of absence’ point. We had the nonsense suggestion that Schwartz wasn’t called to give evidence because the Police or the Coroner mistrusted him completely and forensically destroyed by David Orsam. We’ve had Fanny Mortimer proclaimed as the proof that Schwartz wasn’t there, completely ignoring what she said in the EN and the possibility of Smith being correct. When is this going to sink in?

There was no cover-up. Diemschutz told the truth and whilst there are minor things that will always remain unanswered we can say with confidence that there was no mystery in Berner Street.

So what you're saying is; Edward Spooner was a policeman?