Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[drstrange169]

One quick thing I forgot to write.

The theory is defeated by it's own ill-logic.

You believe Spooner when he says he arrived at the yard at 12:35, which means you must believe him when he says PC lamb arrived 5 mins later, 12:40.

Yet you believe Issac K when he says he first saw the body at 12:40! So how did Spooner see him running past him 5 mins earlier?

Lave and Eagle say they were in the yard around 12:40 and nobody was there.

You believe Heshburg was there at 12:45 after hearing the police whistles, which means PC Lamb was there. Lamb who according to your theory was hopelessly wrong about the time, sent his companion for the doctor, a journey of around 50 secs, managed to take 20 minutes to arrive at Blackwell's!

You believe Mortimer was at her door the whole time, along with Letchford's sister, yet neither saw or heard any of this.

Not to mention Goldstien, Brown and PC Smith who all said they were in the street at the time.

Best of all, you believe Dr Blackwell's time of death, which means at the longer estimate, Spooner was there when Mrs Stride was killed and at the shorter estimate PC Lamb was there!?!

No, it's definitely time to move on.

[drstrange169]

>> Where does it say that this whistle absolutely belonged to a policeman ... <<

In PC Lamb's inquest testimony, "I then blew my whistle".

Had someone blown a whistle between 12:45 and 1:00 a.m., then as your theory claims Mrs Mortimer was at the door at that time, she would have heard it would she not?

Once more, taking the evidence in total it all adds up.

Clearly you want a conspiracy and you are going to shape things to support it. I don't have a theory, I simply look at ALL the evidence go with what actually works.

Obviously the matter will not be resolved between us as you won't give up your theories and I will not give up the facts, so it's time to move on to a more productive topic.

[drstrange169]

>> Louis says he arrived at 1...and Fanny Mortimer was at her door until 1am didn't see or hear him arrive.<<

She didn't see him because as she says, "I was standing at the door of my house NEARLY the whole time ...".
She also tells us after she left the door, " she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

Given there was no such thing as universally coordinated time back then, we allow minutes either way when witnesses statements about the time unless they are using the same time source. So, once again taking the evidence as a whole instead of twisting it to suit, we get a picture that supports L.D.'s claims.

[drstrange169]

>> Brown? Backed by Spooners account..<<

Correct.

Both talk of people not one person running for help.

Spooner tells us it was two "Jews" and Brown tells us it was "about a quarter of an hour after I got in", in other words after 1 o'clock.

You twist it anyway you want by isolating and taking individual pieces out of context, but the beauty of the evidence is that it stays consist when taken as a whole.

[Michael W Richards]

This policemans whistle people keep using to contradict the overwhelming majority of accounts that suggest they were by the dead/dying woman at 12:40-12:45....where does it say that this whistle absolutely belonged to a policeman, on or arriving on, that scene at 12:45? Assumptions again.

The facts are so simple, yet for some reason unaccepted by many....

Eagle and Lave both at the gates at 12:40....neither sees anyone or anything.
Israel says he saw Liz being assaulted in front of the gates at 12:45....no-one else sees or hears any of that event.
Spooner, Issac K, Heschberg and Gillen all say they were inside the passageway by the dead woman around 12:45..the only contradictions to that time are the singular account statements...which as indicated, do not even corroborate each other
Louis says he arrived precisely at 1am......yet Fanny is at her door at 1am and saw no-one approach the gates by cart and horse during her 10 minute continuous stay at the door.

To make the uncorroborated palatable you have to dispute the corroborated timing of 4 people, and the vision and hearing of another. Now perhaps you see what I meant about little opportunity there to make some other sequence of events based on 3 individuals whose accounts don't even match each others, and that discredited the majority of the statements of other witnesses, more probable.

Did Liz suddenly appear from nowhere outside the gates just after Lave and Eagle were there, just in time to have Israel see and hear what he says? Just before Louis arrives at 1am? Well, 5 people, who happen to agree with each others accounts.. independent accounts,... disagree.

[Michael W Richards]

>> "Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house"<<


And he said, he'd been "25 minutes outside the publichouse", ergo, he couldn't have arrived at the yard as he later claimed at "25 minutes to one".

So which is correct?

We know because other witnesses tell us. Brown for one and Spooner's own estimation of when Lamb arrived for another.

"I stood there (in the yard) about five minutes before a constable came".

This confirms Diemshitz, Brown, the police, the medical men's timings and Spooner's own earlier claims about stand outside the pub till one o'clock.



>>That's from the Inquest, or do you prefer press interviews?<<

Um ... and where did you get the inquest quotes from if not a newspaper reporters notes?



>>As for Heschberg, Gillen and Kozebrodski, they all said they were in the passageway around 12:45, <<

As you are ignoring my post #135, I'll repeat:

"And what was it Heschberg said "alerted him at 12:40?
Answer:
"It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."
P.C.'s 426H, Lamb plus Blackwell and Johnston perjured themselves to be part of some club conspiracy?

Taking the word of people we know to be wrong doesn't help.

Spooner said..."I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate."He also says..."There were about fifteen people in the yard....when he arrived there. He also said …"Could any one have left without your observing it? - I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

None of that adds up tp Louis and Issac K being seen together, or that this was after 1am, when Louis says he arrived at 1...and Fanny Mortimer was at her door until 1am didn't see or hear him arrive.

Using uncorroborated statements, statements from club employees that include actions that no-one elses statements include, to discredit 4 corroborated timings and event descriptions that match,...including the crowd that had already gathered,..is of course completely your call. But please do presume that is the most probable interpretation. Its odd how few people learn anything about those few clubber statements, despite the fact that 1 of them isn't even a part of the Inquest, and 3 of them conflict with each other and 4 other witnesses. Eagle and Lave at the gate at the same time..neither sees the other. Louis arrives at the gates at "precisely 1am", he is sure of that, yet Fanny Mortimer is at her door at that same time and had seen nothing transpire other than Goldtsein pass by the club. he is the verification she was in fact there, and 4 statements say Louis was there when they were alerted to the woman,...around 12:45.

As I said, hard to argue with ...I perhaps should have added unless you prefer uncorroborated to corroborated accounts. Which of course would counter productive to finding answers here. But Ive found that many people just want to believe what they want despite the evidence to the contrary, like this mad killer of 5 specific women.

[Michael W Richards]

>> You've read the quote, do you feel he intended to suggest he was sent with someone, and then just neglected to mention it?<<

Absolutely!

It's backed by the independent testimony of Brown and Spooner. Diemshitz send him of and followed after him.

Brown? Backed by Spooners account..the one where he is in the passageway at around 12:40-45? Didn't think someone would try and use something that directly disagrees with Louis statement as a way to bolster Louis's statement...but hey, its a brave new world.

[drstrange169]

>> Im not surprised the posts have dried up here ...<<

Nor am I, there's nothing left to debate as far as discredited timings go.

[drstrange169]

>> "Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house"<<


And he said, he'd been "25 minutes outside the publichouse", ergo, he couldn't have arrived at the yard as he later claimed at "25 minutes to one".

So which is correct?

We know because other witnesses tell us. Brown for one and Spooner's own estimation of when Lamb arrived for another.

"I stood there (in the yard) about five minutes before a constable came".

This confirms Diemshitz, Brown, the police, the medical men's timings and Spooner's own earlier claims about stand outside the pub till one o'clock.



>>That's from the Inquest, or do you prefer press interviews?<<

Um ... and where did you get the inquest quotes from if not a newspaper reporters notes?



>>As for Heschberg, Gillen and Kozebrodski, they all said they were in the passageway around 12:45, <<

As you are ignoring my post #135, I'll repeat:

"And what was it Heschberg said "alerted him at 12:40?
Answer:
"It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."
P.C.'s 426H, Lamb plus Blackwell and Johnston perjured themselves to be part of some club conspiracy?

Taking the word of people we know to be wrong doesn't help.

[drstrange169]

>> You've read the quote, do you feel he intended to suggest he was sent with someone, and then just neglected to mention it?<<

Absolutely!

It's backed by the independent testimony of Brown and Spooner. Diemshitz send him of and followed after him.

[drstrange169]

>> And this is productive because....?<<

Because, the intended humorous nature of it aside, it is a pertinent example of not treating newspaper quotes as gospel, but surely that is obvious?

[Michael W Richards]

Im not surprised the posts have dried up here, its difficult to argue... using witnesses that have only themselves to back up their stories...and that 4 witnesses were all wrong, and Fanny Mortimer somehow went blind and deaf at 12:50 until 1am.

[Michael W Richards]

>> Heschberg didn't appear either...he said he was alerted at 12:40 ...<<

And what was it Heschberg said "alerted him at 12:40?

Answer:
"It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter."

P.C.'s 426H, Lamb plus Blackwell and Johnston perjured themselves to be part of some club conspiracy?



>> and Spooner is told he is incorrect because his times don't match Louis's. <<

Spooner gave two times, one that fits and one that doesn't, that's why he is told he's incorrect. Occams razor.

"Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house"

That's from the Inquest, or do you prefer press interviews?

As for Heschberg, Gillen and Kozebrodski, they all said they were in the passageway around 12:45, so with Spooner, that makes 4 witnesses with a time frame of 12:40-12:45. Find any other case here or anywhere where 4 witnesses corroborating times wouldn't be used to establish event timelines. The only time that might happen is if the physical evidence contradicts those accounts, in this case, we have an estimated cut time of around 12:46 to 12:56. And to top it off we have Fanny Mortimer at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am...and she saw no cart, no pony, no Louis arrive at 1am.

[Michael W Richards]

>> Issac K however said... within an hour of the murder... that Louis sent him out alone ... <<

Could you quote the exact sentence where you think Kozebrodski said he was "alone"?

You also seem to never quote this part of the report,
" Kozebrodsky was born in Warsaw, and can only speak English very imperfectly."

(My emphasis)

You've read the quote, do you feel he intended to suggest he was sent with someone, and then just neglected to mention it?

[Michael W Richards]

>>Issac K however said... within an hour of the murder... that Louis sent him out alone at around 12:40-45. <<


Dear Micheal,

Whenever you read a report in the newspaper from a witness saying they went alone to fetch a policeman, always believe it.

Yours truly,

Robert Paul

And this is productive because....?