Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[Michael W Richards]

If youll note that last post seems to indicate that Liz had been bleeding for some time before Issac was shown the body...and if he is there anywhere near the time he gives, which is likely by using A clock he checked when he re-entered the club at 12:30, then Liz may have been cut very soon after Smith leaves the scene.

Again, 4 people give times that are all within a 5 minute span, from 20 to 1 to a quarter to 1. Your belief requires that I assume all 4 men were incorrect by over 20 minutes. Seems unlikely, doesn't it.

[Michael W Richards]

>> You are aware that there were at least 3 search for help parties sent out, right? <<

No I am not.

I know that Issac K followed by Deimshitz went in one direction, Eagle went in another. Deimshitz returned to the yard with Spooner and Issac K continued on joining up with Eagle.

Issac Kozebrodski is quoted saying...within 1 hour or so from the discovery, that he was by the body at around 12:40, that he was sent out by Louis to look for help, in no instance is that recorded as being "with" Louis, and Eagle and Louis, with a member who most likely was named Issacs, went another direction...Daily News, Oct 1st..."

About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.

[Michael W Richards]

>>Might want to recheck your facts before posting a rebuttal, she say "nearly the whole time" from 12:30 until 1am, she says at the door continuously from 12:50 until 1am.<<

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock..."

Mrs F. Mortimer's words as reported in the Daily News, Evening News, Morning Advertiser and the The Times.

In at least one account she states she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am, and she also says "

If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him."

[Michael W Richards]

Strange then that nobody saw or heard Isaac running about on his own shouting for the police the first time. Surely Spooner must have thought to mention that he'd run past him twice, fifteen minutes apart?

There is no quote from Issac that he was yelling anything when he went out, his account has him out alone, and he does say he met Eagle on his return.

[drstrange169]

What we know is that Mortimer did not say she heard Diemshitz arrive at 12:45. What we also know is that she did hear him arrive after she closed her door.

Therefore Mortimer's story corroborates Diemshitz's claim of arriving around one o'clock.

She also tells us the street was quiet prior to Deimshitz's arrival, no Issac K running around sounding the alarm, no Heshburg running around hearing whistles, no Spooner and Deimshitz running up the street toward the yard.

Goldstein confirms Mortrimer's story of a street devoid of Issac K, Heshburg and Spooner. One of Spooner's times confirms Mortimer's story.

PC Lamb and his companion confirm Mortimer's story and in turn they are confirmed by Spooner's claim of the police arriving five minutes after his arrival. Johnston and Blackwell confirm Mortimer, Spooner, PC Lamb, his companion, Goldstein and Deimshitz's story.

Brown does not see or hear a cart, neither does he hear whistles and people running around when he was in the street. Brown does hear Deimshitz and Issac K after one o'clock.

Eight independant witnesses who's stories confirm an approximate time of discovery at one o'clock. As opposed to Heshburg, whom we know with a high degree of certainity to be wrong. Spooner who gives two different times, one that fits with verified witness accounts and one that has him arriving before the murder. And finally Issac K, who didn't speak English and whose time is not verified by any witness outside of the club premises.

I'm afraid, every conspiracy claim you post, fails the facts test, but let people make their own judgements as to which is the more likely to be true.

[drstrange169]

>> You are aware that there were at least 3 search for help parties sent out, right? <<

No I am not.

I know that Issac K followed by Deimshitz went in one direction, Eagle went in another. Deimshitz returned to the yard with Spooner and Issac K continued on joining up with Eagle.

[drstrange169]

>>Might want to recheck your facts before posting a rebuttal, she say "nearly the whole time" from 12:30 until 1am, she says at the door continuously from 12:50 until 1am.<<

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock..."

Mrs F. Mortimer's words as reported in the Daily News, Evening News, Morning Advertiser and the The Times.

[Joshua Rogan]

You are aware that there were at least 3 search for help parties sent out, right? Issac said he was sent by Louis around 12:40-12:45, Louis and Eagle say they each left after 1, each with their own company.

Strange then that nobody saw or heard Isaac running about on his own shouting for the police the first time. Surely Spooner must have thought to mention that he'd run past him twice, fifteen minutes apart?

[Joshua Rogan]

There is one huge difference between what Fanny said and what Israel said....Fanny validated her times when she mentioned Leon Goldstein. It places her outside the door, watching the street and outside the club, at the same time she said she was there. She establishes a quiet and empty street aside from Goldstein and she witnesses the the young couple, which makes her a witness that witnessed nothing really, except for some people passing by.

Fanny never said she saw the couple. She only said of them;

"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

When asked if she saw a couple pass she said;

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night."

If they had been standing within sight of Fanny "before and after the time the woman must have been murdered" they would have been able to see the yard gates and the whole of the evening's events in the street and would thus likely have been star witnesses at the inquest. Yet Fanny doesn't mention that they might have seen the murder, or the murderer, only saying

"they told me they did not hear a sound."

Implying they were not actually "at the corner" within sight of the club, but somewhere around the corner (where Brown located a couple). And thus not within sight of Fanny either.

Likely she learned of their presence by talking to them after the event.

Of Goldstein, she said;

"I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

Goldstein gave that time as about 12:55, so Fanny went inside just after that, which would tally perfectly with her being inside four minutes before hearing Louis' cart pass. Of course, Wess translated for Goldstein, so you can't believe a word he said.

Sadly for Fanny's credibility, in one interview she says;

"the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School."

But in the next she says;

"I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

So either he walked past her in opposite directions in each account, or walked past her in one but not the other.

One other thing she does say is;

""Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

This might indicate (if she was indeed at her door nearly the whole time) that she did see Lave and/or Eagle and didn't think them at all suspicious. Or that she was just being generous with her timings to make her part in the drama a little larger.

[Michael W Richards]

>> Brown? Backed by Spooners account..<<

Correct.

Both talk of people not one person running for help.

Spooner tells us it was two "Jews" and Brown tells us it was "about a quarter of an hour after I got in", in other words after 1 o'clock.

You twist it anyway you want by isolating and taking individual pieces out of context, but the beauty of the evidence is that it stays consist when taken as a whole.

You are aware that there were at least 3 search for help parties sent out, right? Issac said he was sent by Louis around 12:40-12:45, Louis and Eagle say they each left after 1, each with their own company.

[Michael W Richards]

>> Louis says he arrived at 1...and Fanny Mortimer was at her door until 1am didn't see or hear him arrive.<<

She didn't see him because as she says, "I was standing at the door of my house NEARLY the whole time ...".
She also tells us after she left the door, " she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

Given there was no such thing as universally coordinated time back then, we allow minutes either way when witnesses statements about the time unless they are using the same time source. So, once again taking the evidence as a whole instead of twisting it to suit, we get a picture that supports L.D.'s claims.

Might want to recheck your facts before posting a rebuttal, she say "nearly the whole time" from 12:30 until 1am, she says at the door continuously from 12:50 until 1am.

[Michael W Richards]

The lineup for Inquest does seem to suggest that the authorities thought that nothing remarkable or noteworthy happened between the time that PC Smith last sees Liz and when Louis said he arrives, which again is odd because Goldstein passes by the gate at a time when Liz Stride might be getting her fatal cut just inside the passageway.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

You dismiss Schwartz's testimony because he did not appear appear at the inquest. Yet you treat Fanny Mortimer's statement as the word of God even though she did not appear either. Isn't that a bit inconsistent?

c.d.

There is one huge difference between what Fanny said and what Israel said....Fanny validated her times when she mentioned Leon Goldstein. It places her outside the door, watching the street and outside the club, at the same time she said she was there. She establishes a quiet and empty street aside from Goldstein and she witnesses the the young couple, which makes her a witness that witnessed nothing really, except for some people passing by.

Israel clamed he saw the victim while still alive and struggling with someone just outside where she is killed, and there is no validation for his statement anywhere.

The Inquest was odd anyway, with Mary Malcolm being given lots of time to discuss something the authorities already knew wasn't accurate. The authorities knew the victim was Liz Stride...so why put Malcolm into the mix? Why leave out Fanny? Or Issak K, or Heschberg, or Gillen...why include Spooner then tell him hes wrong,...there are lots of problems with that Inquest.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You dismiss Schwartz's testimony because he did not appear appear at the inquest. Yet you treat Fanny Mortimer's statement as the word of God even though she did not appear either. Isn't that a bit inconsistent?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

As I said before, its clear that the overwhelming majority of times given by witnesses correspond to a discovery time of approx. 12:40 and 12:45. Spooner could have easily been off a few minutes to accommodate that time frame, and again...3 other witnesses say he was right by their times, and we know Fanny Mortimer was at her door and did see what happened by the club from 12:50 to 1am, and Louis did not arrive during that time. Brown saw the same young couple seen by Fanny, whom she later spoke with, and no-one....nobody saw or heard anything of what Israel Schwartz says happened in front of the gates at 12:45. Eagle and Lave both claim to have been by the gates at 12:40, but they don't see anyone, not each other, nor the men who were soon joined by Spooner around a dying woman.

Blackwells cut time allowance does suggest a period just after the one I mentioned above, within another 10 minute window. If Louis actually arrived when Fanny was indoors between 12:35 and before 12:50, it would likely mean that she is killed shortly thereafter. The men gathered around her suggest that she may have been killed right around the time Blackwell stretch's his estimate to. But we also have an estimate at 1:30 that says "within the hour".

The timings need not be errors...as you would have them be...the club staff members had the most to lose if the club was thought complicit in the act had no corroboration for their statements, and the late arriving star witness had no place at all in the review of Liz Strides death via the Inquest. 4 independent witnesses however agree on specific time frames for their knowledge of the event and the subsequent actions taken.

Its hilarious that you and anyone else believes the least corroborated stories to be the most trustworthy, and the majority of accounts with are corroborated by each other are by necessity, incorrect.

Fanny Mortimer alone proves that Louis lied or was wrong about his timing. The 4 corroborated witnesses prove that Eagle and Lave were not honest, or more generously, not accurate. That's just the historical record talking to you, my opinion on the matter isn't even required.