Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[JeffHamm]

>>Your belief requires that I assume all 4 men were incorrect by over 20 minutes. Seems unlikely, doesn't it.<<

Your believe that the police took twenty minutes to fetch Dr Blackwell is unbelievable, as is Kosebrodski running around for 20 minutes not alerting anyone, particularly Mortimer, Brown and Goldstein, really stretches creditability. Not to mention his taking 20 minutes to find Lamb.

And all of these only need to be considered if you accept the notion that, in order to direct attention away from the Jewish population of club members, Schwartz is given a "cover story" to tell the police that Stride's killer had an accomplice (pipeman) with a Jewish name (Lipski). Sure, we now know that through Anderson's knowledge of the area that was more likely shouted at Schwartz and not pipeman, but that just goes to show two things:

1) Schwartz's report to the police actually directs attention towards, not away from, a Jewish offender, therefore increasing the chances the club might come under suspicion,
and
2) the police, despite that, did not use it as an excuse to shut down the club

Personally, that first point of fact, that Schwartz's initial statement does exactly the opposite of what the "cover up" claims is the motive for the cover up, skewers it as a hypothesis because it is logically self contradictory. All the debates that follow, which also tend to skewer it, really are unnecessary but as is born out, they also confirm there was no attempt at an elaborate cover up.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

The was no such thing as universal publicly synchronised time back then. Kozebrodski was quoted as saying, "about twenty minutes to one", so he didn't actually know the time anyway.

Quoting peoples notion of time is useless, be it Issac K or Deimshitz. The sequence of events can only be measured by taking ALL the witness accounts together and forming a timeline that works regardless of what time each indivaul claimed it was.

I absolutely agree with the thrust of your point, however it's worth noting that Louis was (I think) the one witness to give a verifiable source for his time (according to the Morning Advertiser he "noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street").

Incidentally I've just come across a photo from the 1880's of Commercial Road East, showing Harris' shop (82-84) and the entrance to Berner St on the right in the foreground. I can't actually see a clock, but it is a little blurry. Further on is no.100, the tall building at the entrance to Batty St, from where Dr Blackwell was summoned.

http://www.stgitehistory.org.uk/media/commercialroad1899.html#11

[drstrange169]

>>Your belief requires that I assume all 4 men were incorrect by over 20 minutes. Seems unlikely, doesn't it.<<

Your believe that the police took twenty minutes to fetch Dr Blackwell is unbelievable, as is Kosebrodski running around for 20 minutes not alerting anyone, particularly Mortimer, Brown and Goldstein, really stretches creditability. Not to mention his taking 20 minutes to find Lamb.

[drstrange169]

>> ... support the uncorroborated ones by people who would be out of work if the club is shut down by suspicions about this murder.<<

But, there's the rub. Diemshitz's story is supported, Mortimer hears him arrive. Goldstein looked at the club and saw nothing. Mortimer hears the hullabaloo after Diemshitz's arrival. Spooner says the police arrived 5 mins after he did. Brown did not see a horse and cart earlier nor did he see or hear any disturbance prior to 1 o'clock.

Murder by a member is not legal reason to close the club. The club is guided by by-laws, none of which were broken. Even if the club were closed, it would simply re-open elsewhere, as in fact it did a few years later.

[drstrange169]

>>The one thing that is abundantly clear, all the witness accounts cannot coexist within the given times and locations ...<<

But they can if we ignore their claimed times and just follow what they say rather than when they claim it happened.

One small caveat, is Schwartz who can fit in, but uncomfortably so.

[drstrange169]

>>Your belief requires that I assume all 4 men were incorrect by over 20 minutes. Seems unlikely, doesn't it.<<

Four?

Heshburg, proven wrong in his timing beyond any reasonable doubt, Spooner who has two times, one that has him at the yard before Kosebrodski leaves and one that is backed by reliable witnesses like the police and doctors.

So, we have your highly dubious timing of four unreliable witnesses versus the timing of over eight reliable, independent witnesses whose timings are supported by each other beyond reasonable doubt.

[drstrange169]

>> Issac Kozebrodski is quoted saying ... <<

Kozebrodski is quoted as, "who speaks the English language imperfectly", and whose time is not confirmed by any independent witness.

The was no such thing as universal publicly synchronised time back then. Kozebrodski was quoted as saying, "about twenty minutes to one", so he didn't actually know the time anyway.

Quoting peoples notion of time is useless, be it Issac K or Deimshitz. The sequence of events can only be measured by taking ALL the witness accounts together and forming a timeline that works regardless of what time each indivaul claimed it was.

As you just shown in your previous post, Mrs Mortimer and Goldstein disproves your version of Issac K, Heshburg and Spooner's sequence and proves Diemshitz's.

[Sam Flynn]

Your preoccupation with making satirical dialogues based on your lack of belief is always entertaining Sam, but hardly an effective counter argument.

I'd rather not waste words on convoluted rebuttals.

[drstrange169]

>>In at least one account she states she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am, ... <<

Yes, a secondhand rewritten account by a reporter. I was quoting the firsthand account attributed to Mortimer herself as quoted by all the major newspapers.


>> she also says "If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him."<<

Precisely, she didn't see or hear Issac K running around or Spooner and Diemshitz returning.

She didn't hear Deimshitz arrive at an earlier time, but despite her door being closed, she managed to hear him arrive later.

She didn't see or hear all the fuss and whistles Heshburg claimed was happening prior to 1:00 a.m..

And all backed up by Goldstien who looked directly at the club and saw nothing.

[Michael W Richards]

A: "Hey, Shlomo's gone and moydered a woman in the yard! Let's call the police"

B: "No. Let's wait for them to turn up, pretend we know nothing and lie to them"

C: "But this is a goddam moyder we're talking about, man!"

B: "Moyder, shmoyder! They'll close the club down"

A: "We can hold our meetings somewhere else"

B: "No, that simply won't be possible"

A: "Oh. Conspiracy it is, then"

Your preoccupation with making satirical dialogues based on your lack of belief is always entertaining Sam, but hardly an effective counter argument. I guess its impossible to counter something that is for all intent and purpose bleeding obvious anyway.

Louis discovers the body, calls for help from inside the club...members respond by coming to the passageway at around 12:40-12:45. One is sent out for help. The rest figure out what they should do. Move the body out onto the street, send for a doctor privately, call the police, ….Louis and Eagle head out after 1 for help. Spooner saw "two Jewish men running up the street shouting 'murder' and 'police",... that is not to say he saw Louis and Issac[s] running in the street, (for all I know he may have seen Schwartz and someone).. Fanny heard a cart and horse, that is not to say she heard Louis arrive.

The one thing that is abundantly clear, all the witness accounts cannot coexist within the given times and locations. Liz cant be out of sight after 12:35, then seen by Brown at 12:45 down the street, then also seen by Israel at 12:45 outside the gates. Louis cant arrive precisely at 1 because Fanny didn't see him do so, and she was at her door until 1. Louis cant have gone out with Issac K after 1 because Issac K says Louis sent him out at around 12:40-12:45. Spooner cant be wrong about his approximate time of around 20 to 1 because 3 other witnesses said they also were by the body at that time. Eagle cant be right about no-one being in the passage at 12:40, because Lave says he was by the gates at that time and 4 witnesses say they were by the body at around that time. Eagle "couldnt be sure a body wasn't there", because in fact its probable one was there. Israel may have seen what he said, problem is that no-one else saw or heard any of that, and he is not a part of the public hearing into her death. Smith is worth listening to. So is Fanny. And Brown, and Spooner..because these are the only witnesses around the critical times that have nothing at all to do with the club. Club members corroborate each other, club staffers do not agree with each other, or any of the 3 club members corroborated statements. Club staffers had jobs they could lose depending on the perceptions here.

The list of incongruities goes on. If anyone would be honest they would say that no-one can be sure exactly what happened there, or who to believe, I choose to work with the corroborated and the non-affiliated accounts. They had no reason to lie.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, that club was referred to by the local Police as an Anarchists club.

A: "Hey, Shlomo's gone and moydered a woman in the yard! Let's call the police"

B: "No. Let's wait for them to turn up, pretend we know nothing and lie to them"

C: "But this is a goddam moyder we're talking about, man!"

B: "Moyder, shmoyder! They'll close the club down"

A: "We can hold our meetings somewhere else"

B: "No, that simply won't be possible"

A: "Oh. Conspiracy it is, then"

[Michael W Richards]

I really don't see why a club should be shut down if one of its members were found to have committed murder, nor why anyone would think that it would.

Sam, that club was referred to by the local Police as an Anarchists club, which by its very definition means "agitator, guerilla, terrorist, subversive". Neighbors had complained about "low men" hanging about after meetings. Socialist marches, like the one that ended with military men clubbing people in Trafalgar Square the year before, were causing economic and law enforcement headaches. I submit they would be shut down with just the suspicion that they had killed Liz Stride. That's where Israel comes in...translated for by the editor of the Socialist paper printed onsite. Another tenuous job should suspicions rise.

These are the same men that are arrested within 6 months for attacking the police with clubs.

[JeffHamm]

I really don't see why a club should be shut down if one of its members were found to have committed murder, nor why anyone would think that it would.

True. It might be, though, if it were found to have tried to obstruct justice in a murder case. Or at least a lot of it's members might end up arrested and unable to attend club night.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

I really don't see why a club should be shut down if one of its members were found to have committed murder, nor why anyone would think that it would.

[Michael W Richards]

What we know is that Mortimer did not say she heard Diemshitz arrive at 12:45. What we also know is that she did hear him arrive after she closed her door.

Actually what we know is that she heard a cart and horse after going inside, she did not identify Louis as someone she saw arrive.

Therefore Mortimer's story corroborates Diemshitz's claim of arriving around one o'clock.

No, it does not, it directly contradicts the arrival time given by Louis.

She also tells us the street was quiet prior to Deimshitz's arrival, no Issac K running around sounding the alarm, no Heshburg running around hearing whistles, no Spooner and Deimshitz running up the street toward the yard.

She says she was in and out of her home during that last half hour, spending "nearly the whole time" at her door, and with Goldstein and her statement we have her at the door continuously from 12:50-1am. Why is there some insistence that you re-write what has been recorded to suit your own tastes. Not just you of course.

Goldstein confirms Mortrimer's story of a street devoid of Issac K, Heshburg and Spooner. One of Spooner's times confirms Mortimer's story.

You realize that Heschberg and Gillen went from inside the club to the passageway right? Why would anyone on the street see him? Fanny may well have been indoors when some of this took place, before her vigil near 12:50, that's not a problem here. The problem is making trying to portray the only uncorreberated stories as the most probable ones and disregarding the many that corroborate each other.

PC Lamb and his companion confirm Mortimer's story and in turn they are confirmed by Spooner's claim of the police arriving five minutes after his arrival. Johnston and Blackwell confirm Mortimer, Spooner, PC Lamb, his companion, Goldstein and Deimshitz's story.

How does that equate to Louis's arrival time anyway, why is this being inserted here? Ive never said that Louis and Eagle went for help before 1am. I don't believe that they did. Ive said, with corroborating evidence, that Louis arrived much earlier than that. Frankly I believe the woman was discovered when the 4 witnesses were standing by her, and that the club members hesitated in acting while they figured out how this should be handled. Liz bled out while they did. Im not sure who Spooner saw.

Brown does not see or hear a cart, neither does he hear whistles and people running around when he was in the street. Brown does hear Deimshitz and Issac K after one o'clock.

Why do you presume that when someone hears something inside their house that you can identify the source of that sound by name?

Eight independant witnesses who's stories confirm an approximate time of discovery at one o'clock.? As opposed to Heshburg, whom we know with a high degree of certainity to be wrong. Spooner who gives two different times, one that fits with verified witness accounts and one that has him arriving before the murder. And finally Issac K, who didn't speak English and whose time is not verified by any witness outside of the club premises.

I'm afraid, every conspiracy claim you post, fails the facts test, but let people make their own judgements as to which is the more likely to be true.

That last bit is just too much in denial for me to even tackle, and it seems the facts as they are recorded haven't hit home yet anyway. You disparage the witnesses with corroboration and absolutely no reason to falsify their accounts, and support the uncorroborated ones by people who would be out of work if the club is shut down by suspicions about this murder. I hope youre not in law enforcement anywhere.