Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[Abby Normal]

Its a common mistake. And often confused with naïve.

or over active imagination. ; )

[Darryl Kenyon]

if jack was a member of the club and they wanted to shield the club is it really realistic they would come to this convoluted conspiracy cover up on the spot? I mean diemshitz has his cart right there-just move the body a few blocks and be done with it.
and besides Schwartz testimomy apparently was confusing as to who yelled what and why-surely if it was a cover up to deflect from jews/club thay would have at least got the most important part of it right, no? have the killer yell-you bloody jews and your club attracting all these whores here. how hard would that be-I just thought that up in seconds.

and is it really realistic that a jew-schwartz-new to the country, dosnt speak English, with a family to worry about-is going to perjure himself to police in a huge and famous murder investigation putting himself in legal jeopardy or whatever troubles come with it?

Not to mention he just happens to get the description of the killer, peaked cap and all, correct.

cmon this club conspiracy stuff is fantasy and not one iota of evidence in support of it.

Hi Abby, I am not suggesting the IWEC covered for Jack or that any of their members knew or even suspected who he was. What I am suggesting is the risk against Jews say, being beat up in the street or their homes or businesses being targeted for arson was very real. All it needed from a group of antisemitics was a good reason to start a racial/religious riot as such and, lets face it the club full of anarchist Jews with a poor reputation would have been a prime target.
Regarding Schwartz description of the assailant I doubt very much he even knew Lawende's description when he gave his. Plus he didn't speak English so I doubt him saying BSM shouted say, "you filthy Jew" would wash, but a word he could understand like Lipski would.
Regards Darryl

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, I am not suggesting the IWEC covered for Jack or that any of their members knew or even suspected who he was. What I am suggesting is the risk against Jews say, being beat up in the street or their homes or businesses being targeted for arson was very real. All it needed from a group of antisemitics was a good reason to start a racial/religious riot as such and, lets face it the club full of anarchist Jews with a poor reputation would have been a prime target.
Regarding Schwartz description of the assailant I doubt very much he even knew Lawende's description when he gave his. Plus he didn't speak English so I doubt him saying BSM shouted say, "you filthy Jew" would wash, but a word he could understand like Lipski would.
Regards Darryl

Hi DK

Hi Abby, I am not suggesting the IWEC covered for Jack or that any of their members knew or even suspected who he was. What I am suggesting is the risk against Jews say, being beat up in the street or their homes or businesses being targeted for arson was very real. All it needed from a group of antisemitics was a good reason to start a racial/religious riot as such and, lets face it the club full of anarchist Jews with a poor reputation would have been a prime target

So are you saying the club or any of its members had nothing to do with strides murder or her body being found in their yard but decided to come up with this conspiracy anyway over some general concern they would be blamed?

Regarding Schwartz description of the assailant I doubt very much he even knew Lawende's description when he gave his

I agree-or any of the other witnesses that night that all describe basically the same man-a man wearing a peaked cap. which makes his story all the more truthful and also that he probably saw the ripper.

Plus he didn't speak English so I doubt him saying BSM shouted say, "you filthy Jew" would wash, but a word he could understand like Lipski would.

exactly-so if they were going to put up a "patsy" they would have picked someone who understood English so he could relate exactly and clearly what the anti semite, couldn't have been a jew/club member "killer" said.

[Michael W Richards]

Not only was the club full of anarchist Jews, it was known to be so by the local police. Neighbors referred to visitors to the club as "low men" who would often smoke in the passageway after meetings, past 1am. So, everyone quit smoking that night?

The club was in danger of being closed by the police as it was, a suspected murderer in their midst would have done it. But....in the nick of time...SuperSchwartz to the rescue...an assault on the victim off the property, and anti Semitic assailant, ...just what the club needed. Fortuitously? Or by design?

[c.d.]

It's not like it was an if A then B type of arrangement meaning all they had to do was concoct a conspiracy and the club was off the hook. A conspiracy could easily backfire with very serious consequences for club members. And ask yourself this -- if you were a club member engaging in a conspiracy would you want an immigrant new to the country with a wife and new child who didn't speak English to be your point man?

c.d.

[c.d.]

I also think the incentive for a conspiracy would have been much greater had this been the only murder in Whitechapel that Fall. Did the police immediately suspect anyone related to the other murder sites? Under the circumstances, it seems to me that the club's best option was to completely cooperate with the police which is apparently what they did.

c.d.

[Errata]

Regarding Schwartz description of the assailant I doubt very much he even knew Lawende's description when he gave his. Plus he didn't speak English so I doubt him saying BSM shouted say, "you filthy Jew" would wash, but a word he could understand like Lipski would.
Regards Darryl

Ive been bashed in languages I don’t know, and I assure you I knew Beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was being insulted because I was Jewish. To be honest it might have all been Czech but I thought one time it was Russian, or Hungarian maybe? It was right after the fall of communism in Prague, so…

It helps that the word Jew is super similar in a whole bunch of languages. Including two of the three that Israel Schwartz had extensive experience with that were not English. Probably all three. And then of course there’s that tone people say it with... “You filthy Jew” is not an insult wasted on a non-English speaker. And while the addition of “Lipsky” certainly didn’t hurt his comprehension, it was probably entirely unnecessary from Israel Schwartz’s understanding of his tenuous situation.

[Joshua Rogan]

Ive been bashed in languages I don’t know, and I assure you I knew Beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was being insulted because I was Jewish. To be honest it might have all been Czech but I thought one time it was Russian, or Hungarian maybe? It was right after the fall of communism in Prague, so…

It helps that the word Jew is super similar in a whole bunch of languages. Including two of the three that Israel Schwartz had extensive experience with that were not English. Probably all three. And then of course there’s that tone people say it with... “You filthy Jew” is not an insult wasted on a non-English speaker. And while the addition of “Lipsky” certainly didn’t hurt his comprehension, it was probably entirely unnecessary from Israel Schwartz’s understanding of his tenuous situation.

So the fact that - even after Abberline put it to Schwartz that he was the target of the shout - Schwartz was unable to say who it was directed at, would tend to indicate that it wasn't after all an insult flung at him?

[Errata]

So the fact that - even after Abberline put it to Schwartz that he was the target of the shout - Schwartz was unable to say who it was directed at, would tend to indicate that it wasn't after all an insult flung at him?

"Lipsky" has a very different connotation than "you filthy Jew" It is not inherently threatening, only in context. And Schwartz would have to feel as though it applied to him somehow in that situation for it to be in context. Not knowing the two men he had just seen, he didn't know if the word was said to the other man, to Schwartz, the woman... and if Schwartz had not been in the country during the Lipsky trial, he may not have even encountered it as a slur for Jews, or not yet had it explained to him. I'm constantly surprised. Were I in his situation I too would not want to stick around but I wouldn't necessarily be sure of whether or not I was specifically threatened. It's a weird thing. Like "Sheeny" is anti-semitic, but it means beautiful, so its not actually a slur? But most people don't know that, so it is?... kinda hard to know how to feel about it. And "Lipsky" was always a little unusual as a slur. It's almost never as simple as being called "a filthy Jew".

[Michael W Richards]

It's not like it was an if A then B type of arrangement meaning all they had to do was concoct a conspiracy and the club was off the hook. A conspiracy could easily backfire with very serious consequences for club members. And ask yourself this -- if you were a club member engaging in a conspiracy would you want an immigrant new to the country with a wife and new child who didn't speak English to be your point man?

c.d.

There is in fact that danger present in the press records, because 3 people from the club disagreed with what Louis and Eagle said. Notice anyone missing in the Inquest that should have been there to testify...Issac K? He told the press within an hour of the discovery that Louis sent him out alone at around 12:40. That's likely why he wasn't at the Inquest, same for Heschberg and Gillen. They disagreed with the story the main characters in the club, Club Steward and speaker that night, gave the police. Spooner was called out as being wrong for stating the same as those three witnesses.

By the time Israel comes forward they knew what witnesses were there, at approximately what times, and all he had to do was pick a place and time that were not covered by the statements, after Eagle says he got back at 12:40, and before Fanny is at her door continuously, 12:50 until 1am. Goldstein is the proof she was there when she said. That 12:45 time has no-one known to be watching the street...except perhaps the young couple...(wonder who they were).

[Michael W Richards]

"Lipsky" has a very different connotation than "you filthy Jew" It is not inherently threatening, only in context. And Schwartz would have to feel as though it applied to him somehow in that situation for it to be in context. Not knowing the two men he had just seen, he didn't know if the word was said to the other man, to Schwartz, the woman... and if Schwartz had not been in the country during the Lipsky trial, he may not have even encountered it as a slur for Jews, or not yet had it explained to him. I'm constantly surprised. Were I in his situation I too would not want to stick around but I wouldn't necessarily be sure of whether or not I was specifically threatened. It's a weird thing. Like "Sheeny" is anti-semitic, but it means beautiful, so its not actually a slur? But most people don't know that, so it is?... kinda hard to know how to feel about it. And "Lipsky" was always a little unusual as a slur. It's almost never as simple as being called "a filthy Jew".

And in context it was an insult that was hurled at Jews locally. The only reason its in Israel's statement, imo, is to try and establish a gentile assailant.

[Michael W Richards]

So are you saying the club or any of its members had nothing to do with strides murder or her body being found in their yard but decided to come up with this conspiracy anyway over some general concern they would be blamed?

If someone from the club did actually kill her, or not, the risk to the club staying open was the same. the police wanted to shut that club down, and some others in the area. These Socialist anarchists were instigators in strikes, (Tailor/Matchgirl), and openly suggested dismantling government. This club was also the site of a fight the following year, with police, using clubs, that resulted in poor Louis, Issac and others being arrested. These were not harmless individuals.

[c.d.]

And in context it was an insult that was hurled at Jews locally. The only reason its in Israel's statement, imo, is to try and establish a gentile assailant.

Hello Michael,

Of course another very plausible reason why it was in his statement is that that particular insult was actually hurled at Schwartz.

c.d.

[Errata]

And in context it was an insult that was hurled at Jews locally. The only reason its in Israel's statement, imo, is to try and establish a gentile assailant.

In context it’s not an insult. It’s a veiled threat. It’s “I think you are dangerous and if you don’t watch out I will “defend myself” against you. Or alternatively, in certain contexts, it’s a teaching moment. An opportunity for Jews to explain a little bit about themselves. Not that I think Israel Schwartz had a teaching moment. Much akin to calling a Jew a Christ killer. 90% of the time said in malice, 10% in ignorance. 100% Not an insult. especially given how many people named Lipsky the average Jew actually knows.

I can see the argument for using an anti Semitic insult to imply the assailants were gentiles. But why not use a popular common usage anti-Semitic slur rather than a lesser slightly outdated overly political one that a new immigrant is far less likely to know? It’s an odd choice. It’s not to say it didn’t happen, but why choose that?

[drstrange169]

"I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say." Abberline's report. (My emphasis)

Plus, the margin note in Swanson's report says, " The use of "Lipski" increases my belief that the murder was a Jew."

As we all know, Abberline also wrote, "Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance", which implies an Orthodox Jew. Given the club's virulent anti religious stand, it is extremely unlikely an Orthodox Jew would defend the club.

If Schwartz was a club mole, he did a lousy job all round.

Woolf Wess claimed a club member chased someone (Schwartz?) down the street that night, which blows away any club albi as far as Schwartz was concerned. It also kills the unsupported notion that Wess translated for Schwartz to the police.

Never say never, but based on the information we have, it's very unlikely Schwartz was connected to the club.