Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[Joshua Rogan]

Im glad you said Issacs above Josh, because that's who Louis said went with him...while Issac K however said... within an hour of the murder... that Louis sent him out alone at around 12:40-45

One and the same person, Michael, as detailed in the Morning Advertiser 1 Oct;

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

[Michael W Richards]

One and the same person, Michael, as detailed in the Morning Advertiser 1 Oct;

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".^[1]


Or we can hear from Issac K himself Josh. The only reason it was suggested that Issac[s] was in fact Issac K is so it fits Louis's story.

[Abby Normal]

Hey Abbs,

If they saw a man with a peaked hat, they had to make note of that, whether they were commonplace or not.



Far too risky to move the body.

Anyway, it's quite telling that Schwartz never attended the inquest, and lost precedence to another Jewish witness (Lawende) who didn't even witness an assault, and admitted he probably wouldn't recognise the man again. Something's not stacking up.

Hi Harry

If they saw a man with a peaked hat, they had to make note of that, whether they were commonplace or not

well yes of course. and that's my whole point-all the relevant witnesses saw a man with a peaked cap with the victims that night, which made an obvious impression on Abberline, who thought the ripper wore a peaked cap. The logical conclusion to draw is that the ripper wore a peaked cap the night of the double event, and is the man Schwartz saw who attacked and killed Stride. its not rocket science, although some try to make it more complicated than it need be. : )

Far too risky to move the body.

agree. which is why they didn't , nor come up with some stupid convoluted conspiracy. best to just tell the truth and assist the police, which is exactly what they did.

Anyway, it's quite telling that Schwartz never attended the inquest, and lost precedence to another Jewish witness (Lawende) who didn't even witness an assault, and admitted he probably wouldn't recognise the man again. Something's not stacking up

The only thing that dosnt stack up is why he didn't attend the inquest. which probably just has a simple innocent explanation, like he blew it off.

[Michael W Richards]

The only thing that dosnt stack up is why he didn't attend the inquest. which probably just has a simple innocent explanation, like he blew it off.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Yeah...that's probably it...the guy whose statement makes him the last person to see Liz alive blows off the Inquest. Funny that he is not even mentioned too. Nor anything in his story. No Schwartz, no BSM, no Pipeman, no incontinence....zip. Just blew it off, yeah, must be that.

[Harry D]

well yes of course. and that's my whole point-all the relevant witnesses saw a man with a peaked cap with the victims that night, which made an obvious impression on Abberline, who thought the ripper wore a peaked cap. The logical conclusion to draw is that the ripper wore a peaked cap the night of the double event, and is the man Schwartz saw who attacked and killed Stride. its not rocket science, although some try to make it more complicated than it need be. : )

But the dispute here isn't that a man in a peak-hat murdered Stride, it's that the altercation witnessed by Schwartz actually happened. Most of the evidence undermines an altercation minutes before the murder (lack of scream or struggle, cachous, Stride entering a yard with her attacker).

agree. which is why they didn't , nor come up with some stupid convoluted conspiracy. best to just tell the truth and assist the police, which is exactly what they did.

Perhaps they did.

The only thing that dosnt stack up is why he didn't attend the inquest. which probably just has a simple innocent explanation, like he blew it off.

Hard to believe he came forward to the police but failed to attend the inquest. And why wasn't Schwartz used for future identifications? He witnessed what was seemingly a preamble to Stride's murder but is discarded by the police for Lawende. We're not certain Lawende witnessed Eddowes' killer in the first place, let alone his unreliability at recognising him again.

[Abby Normal]

Yeah...that's probably it...the guy whose statement makes him the last person to see Liz alive blows off the Inquest. Funny that he is not even mentioned too. Nor anything in his story. No Schwartz, no BSM, no Pipeman, no incontinence....zip. Just blew it off, yeah, must be that.

yup glad you agree. people blow stuff like this off eveyday, for whatever their personal reasons-don't want to get involved, don't have the time, have other business to attend to, out of town etc. etc. a million simple reasons-unlike your fantasy convoluted conspiracy theories. of which there is zilch evidence for, except in your own mind.

[Abby Normal]

But the dispute here isn't that a man in a peak-hat murdered Stride, it's that the altercation witnessed by Schwartz actually happened. Most of the evidence undermines an altercation minutes before the murder (lack of scream or struggle, cachous, Stride entering a yard with her attacker).



Perhaps they did.



Hard to believe he came forward to the police but failed to attend the inquest. And why wasn't Schwartz used for future identifications? He witnessed what was seemingly a preamble to Stride's murder but is discarded by the police for Lawende. We're not certain Lawende witnessed Eddowes' killer in the first place, let alone his unreliability at recognising him again.

harry
why would Schwartz lie about it?

[Michael W Richards]

yup glad you agree. people blow stuff like this off eveyday, for whatever their personal reasons-don't want to get involved, don't have the time, have other business to attend to, out of town etc. etc. a million simple reasons-unlike your fantasy convoluted conspiracy theories. of which there is zilch evidence for, except in your own mind.

Last person to be seen with the murder victim, and you really believe he would, or could, blow it off? Seriously? And it doesn't bother you that no other mention of anything else he said is in the Inquest records. And Im delusional? C'mon...lets not let these discussions descend into nonsense.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I think it may stem from a report of what was actually Isaacs and Louis running along the street searching for a policeman, but being mistaken for one chasing the other.

Exactly what I thought -Edward Spooner, I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back.

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

>> I know they have no more info than Schwartz but that does not mean they didn't have more info on Schwartz than us today.<<

Anderson didn't even know that Schwartz was not at the inquest.



>>I have trouble with the report in the Echo, to me it seems the quickest way home for Schwartz is straight down Berner St and into Ellen and home.<<

Wess's story is a vague recollection of a piece of gossip he heard, I don't think we need to delve into the logistics of it too much.


>>Maybe he had a p/t job here and wore some of that attire at the time he was interviewed , it was said he had the appearance of being in the theatrical line.<<

A few of us have looked into the theatre records, so far nobody has come up with Schwartz, however there have been a couple of good candidates who were, not surprisingly, tailors.



>>Yes, Oct 1 report could mean the prisoner but it could also mean Schwartz ... <<

No it clearly references the "prisoner".



>> but Oct 2 report definitely puts a dampener on things<<

Yes it does and that is definitely a mystery.

If Wess,s story is a piece of gossip then surely it cannot be relied upon, and as Joshua as pointed out there were two Jews running down Fairclough st according to Edward Spooner.

Anderson probably assumed that Schwartz did, or would appear at the inquest in what I believe was just a draft letter [apologies if I am wrong on this, short on time to check]. Begs the question though why he didn't

The Star report on Oct 1 may have referred to the man being questioned, but either way it doesn't really matter because by the next day they had questioned Schwartz veracity. And remember the Star was the only paper to interview Schwartz, a massive scoop for them, yet they still doubted [for whatever reason], his version of events.

Regards Darryl

[Michael W Richards]

Exactly what I thought -Edward Spooner, I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back.

Regards Darryl

So, how does he see Louis before 1am when Louis vehemently claims he arrived at 1.."precisely"? Rhetorical. He didn't arrive at 1 as he claimed. Then Spooner and 3 other witnesses are correct with the times they give, which all correspond to each others. 4 corroborated accounts of being by the mortally injured Stride between 12:40 and 12:45.

[Michael W Richards]

Gee...if he didn't arrive at 1 as he stated but asked others there to back his story...like Eagle, (2 people onsite who got paid to be at the club, 1 of them responsible for it), …. wouldn't that be a dreaded "conspiracy"...?? Oh my.

[Abby Normal]

deleted

[Joshua Rogan]

Yeah...that's probably it...the guy whose statement makes him the last person to see Liz alive blows off the Inquest. Funny that he is not even mentioned too. Nor anything in his story. No Schwartz, no BSM, no Pipeman, no incontinence....zip. Just blew it off, yeah, must be that.

Funny, Kozebrodsky wasn't at the inquest either. You'd think, having said he was with the body 20 minutes before Louis claimed to discover it, that he would have been....

[Michael W Richards]

Funny, Kozebrodsky wasn't at the inquest either. You'd think, having said he was with the body 20 minutes before Louis claimed to discover it, that he would have been....

That's observant, and almost certainly due to the fact that what Issac said is directly contradictory to what Louis said in terms of timing. The club stewards statement cant be challenged by a club member on the stand, bad form.

Heschberg didn't appear either...he said he was alerted at 12:40, so did Gillen..he didn't appear either, and Spooner is told he is incorrect because his times don't match Louis's. News Flash….no-ones timings match Louis's.