“Story” of witness

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Joshua.

I don't know if you recall the name John Thimbleby, he reported seeing a man fleeing along Hanbury St. about 6:00am. Thimbleby was never called as a witness in the Chapman case.

Hmm, can't say I do recognise the name, or the incident....

My initial thought would be that perhaps the police discovered he witnessed Davis running for help after finding the body (rather than the fleeing killer), in the same way there were reports of a man being chased from the scene of the Stride murder, which turned out to be Isaacs and Diemschutz running for a policeman. But I'd be interested in reading the account if you have a reference?

By the way, at the east end of Hanbury St., turn north on Baker' Row, and you pass Coverly Fields.

Good spot! Sounds like just the sort of thing a drayman would know, as it appears to be part of the Black Eagle Brewery!

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.489979983977978&lat=51.5206&lon=-0.0655&layers=163&b=1

[Joshua Rogan]

That I think he absolutely would have - he was a brewers cart man and my grandmother did say he worked nights/early hours.

In guessing that overnight Friday to Saturday was a particularly busy shift, to get the weekend beer deliveries out?

Sorry, should have said "after midnight on a Saturday night", so technically it was Sunday morning when the double event occurred.

[Paddy]

I think the most logical murder would be the Bucks Row one and the fields are Weavers Fields that are at the top of Brady street. The Weavers Fields are just a few streets from Corfield road where Joseph lived...

[KStan84]

Sorry, should have said "after midnight on a Saturday night", so technically it was Sunday morning when the double event occurred.

Saturday to Sunday still would have been a busy beer delivery day wouldn’t it?

[KStan84]

I think the most logical murder would be the Bucks Row one and the fields are Weavers Fields that are at the top of Brady street. The Weavers Fields are just a few streets from Corfield road where Joseph lived...

Hi Paddy - Did you manage to trace where Jospeh Shipgood lived at the time?

[Meerkat]

Hi Paddy - Did you manage to trace where Jospeh Shipgood lived at the time?

Hi KStan84

Is your partners Grandfather the one listed in the england 1901 census, born circa 1844?

[KStan84]

Hi KStan84

Is your partners Grandfather the one listed in the england 1901 census, born circa 1844?

Yes he is. Married to Eliza. Daughter was Minnie Shipgood.

[KStan84]

Update from grandmother:

So I originally spoke to our grandmother a few months back when she shared this story with me. After posting here I decided to ask her again, and she added that it wasn’t just Joseph Shipgood who saw the man running - his daughter Minnie supposedly did, as she claimed she was riding his cart with him! And our grandmother was told the story by Minnie herself.
I checked the records and Minnie would have only been 6 at the time. So either she didn’t fully remember well, she did remember, or she retold the story from her father’s account. Or she wasn’t actually there but said she was, being fanciful. If indeed it happened at all. Would a father really take his daughter to work on a cart with him, late night/ early morning, at the height of the Jack the Ripper scare? Or could this be a likelihood in those days?

She also claimed that her dad had said “never mind about that man we saw, he could have been Jack the Ripper!” Now for him to have said that, again if this happened at all, if means this would have been one of the later murders after the term “Jack the Ripper” had been coined.

Our grandmother doubts they would have reported to the police, as they didn’t want to bother to get involved. That statement struck me a lot.

In the LVP, your average poor working class family, who are likely to be the people who witnessed anything going on in Whitechapel in those days, really had no incentive to report anything they may have seen. They needed to work all hours to take care of their family, trouble could be caused for them, and time taken (and time = money) out of their busy lives, to have to give statements, reports, attend inquests etc. Many may have seen something of importance but been reluctant to get involved. Sad sign of the times I think.

[Stacker]

In the LVP, your average poor working class family, who are likely to be the people who witnessed anything going on in Whitechapel in those days, really had no incentive to report anything they may have seen. They needed to work all hours to take care of their family, trouble could be caused for them, and time taken (and time = money) out of their busy lives, to have to give statements, reports, attend inquests etc. Many may have seen something of importance but been reluctant to get involved. Sad sign of the times I think.

I would imagine that such would change as soon as that MP offered to give 100 pounds of his own money to anyone who managed to give the police critical details to solve the case.

[KStan84]

I would imagine that such would change as soon as that MP offered to give 100 pounds of his own money to anyone who managed to give the police critical details to solve the case.

Oh yes of course. Well we’ll never know. Maybe Joseph Shipgood did see something, maybe he did or didn’t have his daughter. Maybe he did report to the police when a reward was offered but it didn’t amount to anything significant. It’s been an interesting tale anyway, that’s opened up a whole load more of fascination on the case for me.

[Paddy]

Hi Paddy - Did you manage to trace where Joseph Shipgood lived at the time?

Hi According to the electoral roll he was living in 1888 in Reigate Surrey with wife Eliza it appears he did not move his family to Corfield road Bethnal Green til 1890/1

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi According to the electoral roll he was living in 1888 in Reigate Surrey with wife Eliza it appears he did not move his family to Corfield road Bethnal Green til 1890/1

Hmmm. That's a fair distance, and would seem to rule out being a witness at any except the Frances Coles murder. Maybe he saw the owner of the retreating footsteps heard by PC Thompson?

[KStan84]

Thanks all for your comments and research.

Obviously being in my extended family, I found the story fascinating, but with the Shipgoods having lived in a different area at the time of the murders, I’m guessing it’s probably just turned out to be an exaggerated or skewed family tale than having much truth to it after all. (Unless, for whatever reason, he was travelling into work or staying in the area temporarily at the time and eventually moved the family closer?)

Shame. At least it’s reopened my fascination in the case!