“Story” of witness

[KStan84]

First of all - hello all! This is my first post! And what a way to waste a weekend trawling through this fascinating forum!

Ive long been interested, but by no means extensively knowledgable or an expert as many of you are. So please forgive me if this post comes across as naive, but I would like to share a family story that I’ve stumbled across and see if there is any possible truth to it.

My spouses grandmother (in her 80s) and I were looking through ancestry and I found photographs of her grandparents. She began telling me all about them. We stumbled across a gentleman named Joseph Shipgood - her great grandfather. His daughter was Minnie. Minnie would often tell her how her father, Jospeh, was a witness, who apparently saw a man in dark clothing flee the scene of where one of the Whitechapel murders had taken place. He apparently ran across over “the fields” and he was always sure it was the ripper. Joseph was a cartman for a local Brewery. (Unknown, but perhaps Truman?) I’ve checked the census and his occupation is verified.

As for the “fields” I’m wondering if this could have referred to a location name rather than actual fields, being as there was very little greenery around. Perhaps he meant in the direction of Goodman's fields shown south in the Whitechapel map?

Now if this is the case, why isn’t Jospeh listed as a witness and this sighting known about? Interested to here your thoughts on this tale...

[Wickerman]

Hi KStan, welcome.

Arn't these family stories often intriguing?
Ok, to get to the specific's. If Joseph Shipgood didn't tell the police, or a pressman then his story would never be known.

The only reason we have those all too familiar witnesses in the Whitechapel Murders is because they were chosen by the Coroner to appear at the inquest. In order to be chosen, they first had to give a statement to the police.
Alternately, some witnesses were interviewed by a journalist, either on the street or where they lived. We get to know their names from the newspapers.

I'm sure there are plenty of witnesses who saw something, or thought they saw something, who's story has never been told. The police conducted house-to-house enquiries in some cases where they took hundreds of statements, most of which have been lost over the years. If your relative was not able to describe this fleeing figure then his story, if he did talk to police, may not have been of any real value, compared with others.

On the other side of the argument though, there were just as many false stories by people claiming to see something they never saw. Just for the notoriety of having a story to tell.

[KStan84]

Hi Wickerman, thanks for the reply.

Hmm yes I suppose so. I assumed he had told the police just based on the fact our Grandmother said he “was a witness” - just made it sound more official, rather than “he thought he saw something”. Of course he may not have reported it then.

I found it intriguing that she retold this story but isn’t the sort of person to exaggerate or spin a yarn. She was quite blasé about it and only mentioned it because I pointed out he was working in Whitechapel at the time. Which added more belief for me.

Well was an interesting tale to hear anyway!

[Wickerman]

Hi again KStan.

You no doubt realize Goodman's Fields covers such a huge area (assuming these are the "fields" referred to?), yet it would appear to be more likely connected to a fleeing suspect in the Stride case.



There was a house-to-house conducted after the Stride murder, so your relative may have been spoken to by the police (is this where he lived?), which would make him feel more like an official witness, whether they used his sighting or not.
If your relative could not provide a usable description (everyone wore dark clothing), or could not provide an obvious direction of the fleeing subject (a street name?), then this may be why we never hear of his name as a witness.

[KStan84]

1881 census they’re in Reigate, then lived in Bethnal Green according to the 1891 census, then 1901 is Whitechapel, but our Grandmother definitely said he worked in Whitechapel. But I suppose depending on how frequently they moved he could have lived closer Whitechapel area at the time during the door to door enquiries, unless the police conducted these as far out as Bethnal Green?

I thought that from the map, and if it was from Strides murder, it may have even been Israel Schwartz he saw running away.

[KStan84]

And yes I agree the actual description and what he supposedly witnessed is very vague. As is “over the fields” unless that had more meaningful context to the exact location, or local descriptions used at the time

[Joshua Rogan]

I thought that from the map, and if it was from Strides murder, it may have even been Israel Schwartz he saw running away.

I was just thinking that too - was your relative Pipeman?

[KStan84]

I was just thinking that too - was your relative Pipeman?

No, Joseph Shipgood. Listed as Brewers Carman on census

[KStan84]

I was just thinking that too - was your relative Pipeman?

Sorry do you mean “pipe man” as in the second man who followed Schwartz?! Well, I have no idea. Doubtful - I would assume if he was at work, he would be on his cart?!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wonder, was Spitalfield’s ever known locally as ‘‘’the fields?’’’

A stab in the dark I know.

[KStan84]

I wonder, was Spitalfield’s ever known locally as ‘‘’the fields?’’’

A stab in the dark I know.

Could be! There’s also Smithfield’s nearby. Maybe the location was more specific but the detail has been lost over the years

[Joshua Rogan]

Sorry do you mean “pipe man” as in the second man who followed Schwartz?! Well, I have no idea. Doubtful - I would assume if he was at work, he would be on his cart?!

That's the chappie. Would your great grandfather have been working at gone midnight on a Saturday?

Please don't think I'm implying your relative was a murderer's accomplice, by the way, I happen to think the pipe-smoking man was an innocent bystander. But he was never identified, so could be anybody.

[Joshua Rogan]

There was a house-to-house conducted after the Stride murder, so your relative may have been spoken to by the police (is this where he lived?), which would make him feel more like an official witness, whether they used his sighting or not.
If your relative could not provide a usable description (everyone wore dark clothing), or could not provide an obvious direction of the fleeing subject (a street name?), then this may be why we never hear of his name as a witness.

Not a police witness, perhaps, but seeing someone flee a murder scene would have been very handy to determine the time of death at the inquest.

[KStan84]

That's the chappie. Would your great grandfather have been working at gone midnight on a Saturday?

That I think he absolutely would have - he was a brewers cart man and my grandmother did say he worked nights/early hours.

In guessing that overnight Friday to Saturday was a particularly busy shift, to get the weekend beer deliveries out?

[Wickerman]

Not a police witness, perhaps, but seeing someone flee a murder scene would have been very handy to determine the time of death at the inquest.

Hi Joshua.

I don't know if you recall the name John Thimbleby, he reported seeing a man fleeing along Hanbury St. about 6:00am. Thimbleby was never called as a witness in the Chapman case.

By the way, at the east end of Hanbury St., turn north on Baker' Row, and you pass Coverly Fields.