"City PC"

[Monty]

All,

Two points.

Harveys sacking may have been for a number of misdemeanors or they decided to make an example of him.

From his position at the end of Church Passage, a Bulls eye lamp would have had no effect whatsoever. So to simply state all Harvey had to do was shine a lamp upon the spot is not taking this into account. I have a Bulls eye lamp, and use it. If anyone is attending the York conference I will gladly bring it to show you just how ineffective it is at lighting up at distance.

I attach the July 1889 Bishopsgate Order book return noting Haveys dismissal, plus something that would get the Druittests drooling.

Monty

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Jonathan. Thanks. Very well.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

punctus contra punctum

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Jack the Ripper was the name given to the killer of the previous victims."

Eventually. Yes, quite true.

"The nick name hadn`t yet being invented but the women died all the same."

Agreed. And many women have died at some point.

"John Pizer was Leather Apron . . . "

Well, perhaps he went into the legend, but was certainly NOT the only inspiration for it.

" . . . and he was certainly out and about before and after the Double Event."

Just so. And he killed NO ONE.

"Just because two girls were winding up Isenschmid in North London . . . "

North London? Try Google maps. 5 miles NW of Whitechapel.

" . . . by calling him Leather Apron (because he sometimes wore his butcher's clothing when he was working as a butcher) . . . "

But don't forget "The Echo," 10 September, 1888.

" . . . and he, in turn, chaffed them, doesn`t make him Leather Apron . . . "

Indeed. Legends usually require more than one of a kind.

" . . . or anything to do with the legend of Leather Apron."

And here, we must agree to disagree.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

awaiting

Hello Michael. Thanks. I look forward to it.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

To Lynn

No, none whatsoever.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Of course, at that time, there was NO JTR--only the previous "Leather Apron" legend and who was currently inactive.

Jack the Ripper was the name given to the killer of the previous victims. The nick name hadn`t yet being invented but the women died all the same.

John Pizer was Leather Apron and he was certainly out and about before and after the Double Event.

Just because two girls were winding up Isenschmid in North London by calling him Leather Apron (because he sometimes wore his butchers clothing when he was working as a butcher) and he, in turn, chaffed them, doesn`t make him Leather Apron or anything to do with the legend of Leather Apron.

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

True, but a murder had just been committed in Berner Street. It is possible that City Policemen were unaware of this however. This brings up another idea that I need to bring up on the other thread I am going to start... soon... after a beer.

Mike

[lynn cates]

inactive

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Of course, at that time, there was NO JTR--only the previous "Leather Apron" legend and who was currently inactive.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

One who had not struck in about 3 weeks, and whose previous killings were done in Whitechapel, not Aldgate.

Well, call me cautious, but if I were in modern New York City, and I knew there was a one of a kind killer a mere 15 minutes by foot from me (I walk quickly), and there was a lot of heat on the police, I'd be checking things out. Plus, I would imagine all sorts of things lurking about anyway, regardless of a killer being about.

Mike

[lynn cates]

gullibility

Hello Jonathan. Thanks. Perhaps he depended on their gullibility.

Is there any chance that the reference is to Halse who stopped the two blokes for questioning and then let them go?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. You mean minor infractions? I daresay.

Do those usually result in sacking?

With the police, I have no idea. In the military (USAF), they were super strict about every little thing. If you missed work, you lost a grade level and were made to do all sorts of unsavory things on your days off. If you were even a second late, you received a commander's punishment which usually meant you had to paint something on your days off for a one-time shot, but no reduction in pay grade. Imagine, however, not showing up to duty during a time when you had to be concerned about the buck being passed down to you should the crap hit the fan because of JTR.

Mike

[Jonathan H]

A closely-trimmed beard

To Lynn

The proof is in Mac's success.

Mac gambled that Griffiths and Sims would not check, and they didn't. It was not that easy, for one thing, to check.

Major Griffiths, 1898:

' ... One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum. This man was said to resemble the murderer by the one person who got a glimpse of him - the police-constable in Mitre Court.'

Sims, 1907:

' ... Various witnesses who had seen a man conversing with a woman who was soon afterwards found murdered said that he was a well-dressed man with a black moustache. Others described him as a man with a closely-trimmed beard ... The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.'

That hid Druitt, while taking care of Sims' vanity.

In his 1914 memoirs Mac tried to put the toothpaste back in the tube to quash Anderson and his clincher eyewitness:

' ... But the lust for blood was unsatisfied. The madman started off in search of another victim, whom he found in Catherine Eddowes. This woman's body, very badly mutilated, was found in a dark corner of Mitre Square. On this occasion it is probable that the police officer on duty in the vicinity saw the murderer with his victim a few minutes before, but no satisfactory description was forthcoming.'

[lynn cates]

doubts

Hello Jon. Thanks.

As a young lad, I was fascinated when I learned that "Jack pulled off the murder in Mitre square with vigilance people and coppers all about him."

I wondered how this could be so.

Now I 'ave me doubts.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

One who had not struck in about 3 weeks, and whose previous killings were done in Whitechapel, not Aldgate.

Good point, Lynn.

Makes you wonder where all the plain clothes coppers and Vigilante groups were patrolling in large numbers?

[lynn cates]

killer about

Hello (again) Michael.

"An adult, with a killer about . . . "

One who had not struck in about 3 weeks, and whose previous killings were done in Whitechapel, not Aldgate.

Cheers.
LC