"City PC"

[lynn cates]

minor infractions

Hello Michael. You mean minor infractions? I daresay.

Do those usually result in sacking?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Harvey would have shone his lantern into the Square. There is also a sound practical reason for doing so - he was about to turn his back on Mitre Square and whoever might be lurking within it. It's what I would have done - checked for anyone skulking about - self-preservation as much as anything.

Absolutely agree! A little child, fearful of the bogey man, will shine a light into every nook and cranny. An adult, with a killer about who hasn't the fear to do so, must be either apathetic or drunk. I can think of no other reasons not to, and I suspect his superiors felt something similar.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks. Sound reasoning.

Do we know how many infractions he incurred previously?

I know nothing. I only surmise. There seems to have been some odd police situations going on at that time with individual cops that just ain't kosher. We have this incident with Harvey, or non-incident where he saw nothing. We have the Jewish policeman Thomas Brown shooting himself after resigning, and being, seemingly connected to his not showing up for work about the evening Kelly was killed. If I'm not mistaken, Watkins was somewhat derelict too on the evening of Eddowes murder as well. I suggest that were anyone to follow any beat policeman with a hidden camera, they would find some form of dereliction every single night, going by the book, in the same way that every footballer or rugby player commits a breach of the rules nearly every game and that only in 90 or 80 minute duty shifts!

I absolutely believe that cops were fired/fined/forced to resign, whatever, because shite runs downhill and someone needs to be punished.

Mike

[Bridewell]

New Thread

Bridewell,

Interesting argument you've begun. I tend to think Harvey got into a bit of trouble for NOT seeing anything. And if that is tied to suspicion of being in his cups, but without proof, I can imagine a violation a year later would have been the final straw. His timing to the Square is so close to the death of Eddowes that an observant cop would have been believed to have noticed something, yet he didn't. Not saying he should have, but two murders in a night and nothing? That brings me to another point that I will start a new thread about.

Mike

Thanks for that, Mike. I entirely accept the point (Trevor's?) about Mitre Square not being part of his beat, but I just think that, human nature being what it is, Harvey would have shone his lantern into the Square. There is also a sound practical reason for doing so - he was about to turn his back on Mitre Square and whoever might be lurking within it. It's what I would have done - checked for anyone skulking about - self-preservation as much as anything.

What's the new thread called by the way?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

infractions

Hello Michael. Thanks. Sound reasoning.

Do we know how many infractions he incurred previously?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

I'm no expert, but I'd suggest it was an accumulation of such incidents that would do a fellow in.

Mike

[lynn cates]

sacking

Hello Neil, Michael. I'm wondering if a sacking isn't a tad severe for taking a wee dram on occasion? I would have thought some other form of chastisement?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

May the farce be with you.

Hello Jonathan. Thanks.

"The City PC witness, created by Macnaghten in the 'Aberconway' version of his 'Home Office Report', refers to Joseph Lawende."

Well, I can certainly live with that.

But why did Mac make him into a PC? Would not those for whom the story was intended be able to check at Old Jewry and discover the farce?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Bridewell,

Interesting argument you've begun. I tend to think Harvey got into a bit of trouble for NOT seeing anything. And if that is tied to suspicion of being in his cups, but without proof, I can imagine a violation a year later would have been the final straw. His timing to the Square is so close to the death of Eddowes that an observant cop would have been believed to have noticed something, yet he didn't. Not saying he should have, but two murders in a night and nothing? That brings me to another point that I will start a new thread about.

Mike

[Monty]

I was informed so Colin, however I'm willing to be corrected.

Monty

[Bridewell]

The Homes

The Seaside home would be for serving Officers only.

Hi Monty,

Was that definitely the case? I only ask because the modern Police Convalescent Homes also accommodate retired officers, but for a maximum of one week, rather than the two permissible for those still serving.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Jonathan H]

The beat cop is Lawende inverted

To Lynn

The City PC witness, created by Macnaghten in the 'Aberconway' version of his 'Home Office Report', refers to Joseph Lawende.

Or rather is Lawende hidden by reversing the ethnicity of the witness, actually Lawende a Jew, and the suspect, a Gentile-featured prole.

Macnaghten did this because he knew that Griffiths, and certainly Sims would recall some kind of eyewitness who saw the fiend.

In Sims, 1907, the famous writer claims that the City PC actually saw the Polish Jew suspect later, arguably the locus for Anderson misremebering the Sadler-Lawende 'confrontation' -- but correctly recalling that it was a Jewish witness not a beat cop.

The reason Mac pulled back from his fictionalised Lawende -- the witness because he saw a man who resembled Druitt -- in his 1914 memoirs, is because they were written partly to debunk Anderson's of four years before, eg. there was no super-witness, the Ripper was a Gentile not a Hebrew, he had never been 'detained' in a madhouse, and we had never heard of him for 'some years after' he took his own life.

[lynn cates]

"Oops!"

Hello Trevor. OK, how did he avoid him?

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor.

"However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street."

But would he not have bumped into Watkins in that case?

Cheers.
LC

Nope not by my calculations

[Monty]

I am inclined to agree with you Macnaghten made another boo boo one of many in the memo.

Fo those who suggest Harvery saw the murder taking place and panicked. For that to have happened given the lighting conditions he would have to have almost been on top of them, as his beat didnt take him into the square proper. Best he could have hoped for may have seen the outliine of two shadowy figures. After all the murder location. was the darkest part of the square.

However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street.

Trevor has, on the whole summed up my take on this.

The key point in Bromleys article is that the killer had left by the time Harvey had reached the end of Church Passage. Whilst I'm not completely sold on that I am willing to sway with it.

The Seaside home would be for serving Officers only.

Monty