"City PC"

[lynn cates]

Watkins

Hello Trevor.

"However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street."

But would he not have bumped into Watkins in that case?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

insufficient data

Hello Colin. I think those questions are better asked of our retired coppers. Sorry.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

My suspicion is Macnaghten erred.

I see no reason to keep it quiet once Harvey was dismissed. I also do not understand the delay in dismissal nor the fact it is recorded in the order book with no reference to a hearing (Unlike Hutt who was summonds to a hearing infront of Smith)

We have a responsibility here to cover all possibilities. So before we speculate its best to evaluate.

Harveys record, order books and lack of evidence supporting the idea he saw something, indicates just that. Harvey wasn't the City PC refered to.

Monty

I am inclined to agree with you Macnaghten made another boo boo one of many in the memo.

Fo those who suggest Harvery saw the murder taking place and panicked. For that to have happened given the lighting conditions he would have to have almost been on top of them, as his beat didnt take him into the square proper. Best he could have hoped for may have seen the outliine of two shadowy figures. After all the murder location. was the darkest part of the square.

However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street.

[Bridewell]

The Viewing

Doubt they would accommodate someone not on their force.

Cheers.
LC

Did not the Seaside Home referred to evolve into the 1890 Southern Police Convalescent Home, one of only two in the country, the other being the Northern Police Convalescent Home in Harrogate?

http://www.stgeorgesharrogate.org/stg33standrews.htm

It's not the exclusive preserve of the Metropolitan Police now. Was it ever? If so when did the change come about?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

dissertation

Hello Don. Hmm, sounds like material for the dissertations section.

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Neil,

Gavin Bromley promotes Harvey's candidacy in his article, the name of which escapes me, but is very very good.

I think the articles you mean are "City Beat I" and "City Beat II" in Ripperologist No. 74 (December 2006) and Ripperologist No. 75 (January 2007).

I agtree they are "very, very good" but anyone reading them will feel they are doing an SAT math exam. I -- literally -- needed a stop-watch when I edited them ages ago.

Don.

[lynn cates]

Seaside Home

Hello Harry. Doubt they would accommodate someone not on their force.

I still like the Evans hypothesis for the Seaside Home.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

The Whistle

Who do you think Robert Sagar had in mind when he wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

At the risk of undermining my own argument, it would suggest that the officer was not a City PC as they had rattles, not whistles. If the story has a basis in truth, however, it would point towards Watkins as the Pc and Morris as the whistle-blower. Monty, I don't suppose there is a record of any reason for Watkins' resignation- probably didn't have to give one?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

My suspicion is Macnaghten erred.

I see no reason to keep it quiet once Harvey was dismissed. I also do not understand the delay in dismissal nor the fact it is recorded in the order book with no reference to a hearing (Unlike Hutt who was summonds to a hearing infront of Smith)

We have a responsibility here to cover all possibilities. So before we speculate its best to evaluate.

Harveys record, order books and lack of evidence supporting the idea he saw something, indicates just that. Harvey wasn't the City PC refered to.

Monty

[lynn cates]

diaries

Hello Colin. I've heard no talk about any such diaries surviving. It would be lovely, though.

Wish I knew if Mac were talking through his hat.

Cheers.
LC

[Harry the Hawker]

And another thing

I forgot to mention viz this subject: could it somehow tie in with Swanson's reference to the Seaside Home? In that, according to Swanson, the suspect was "sent" to be identified to the seaside home. An ex City copper could have been staying at such a home?
Does make me wonder.

Cheers!
'Arry

[Bridewell]

Harvey

Hello Colin. There has been speculation that Harvey saw the murder occur as he neared the end of Church passage. It was thought that he was frightened and went back out again. If he later admitted this to his superiors, that would (perhaps) explain his dismissal.

That's what I'm thinking too.

But for my part, if this had occurred, it seems that later he would not have been able to hide the fact when apprised of the murder.

He certainly shouldn't have hidden the fact, if indeed that's what he did. To have done so would have been - a sacking offence.

But I would still like to know why Harvey was sacked.

Not on his record apparently. I wonder if the Acting Commissioner's diaries survive. Has anyone checked?

If we accept that Lawende and his companions did see a man and woman talking in Church Passage at 1.35am - and there seems no reason to disbelieve them - where did that couple go and how soon afterwards? There were only two possible exits, weren't there? Towards Dukes Place & Pc Harvey, or towards Mitre Square & the murder scene? None of Harvey, Lawende, Levy or Harris saw them emerge onto Dukes Place - which surely they would have mentioned as it would have meant that the woman wasn't Eddowes. I suggest that they went into Mitre Square where, if the woman was Eddowes, he murdered her or, if she wasn't Eddowes, they encountered JtR about his business. For me the likelihood is that the three Jews went their separate ways, the man and woman walked along Church Passage towards Mitre Square followed 2 - 4 minutes later by Pc Harvey who said he saw and heard nothing at all. Someone sure as hell disturbed JtR. If the woman wasn't Eddowes it was her and her male companion. If the woman was Eddowes it was Pc James Harvey.

My suspicion is that senior officers within the City of London eventually concluded that Harvey simply must have seen or heard something, and confronted him with that belief; also that rumours of such a confrontation reached the ears of certain officers within the Metropolitan Police - & that those rumours are the substance behind MacNaghten's comment in the Aberconway version of the MM.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

Thanks, Monty. What, if anything, do you see as the significance of Harvey's being the most easterly beat?

Regards, Bridewell.

Well, being the most easterly, the chances of a murder happening on Harveys beat was higher of any other City PC.

Harvey had, what? 12 years experience by 88. He was a seasoned PC who knew the score. I suspect he was more aware during that period of his career than at any other stage.

Monty

[lynn cates]

editor

Hello Jon.

"Who do you think Robert Sagar had in mind when he wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."

Umm, his editor? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

taking his time

Hello Neil. Whilst not espousing that theory myself, the reasoning would be that it took that long to confess it. Conscience, etc.

From my view, IF he had seen the murder, he would have been quite shaken and, later, when told of it, could not conceal that fact.

Cheers.
LC