Elizabeth Prater

[Cogidubnus]

This was an accepted fact until 3 years ago based on her inquest statement. Then Sam Flynn unearthed a whole heap of contemporary news reports that together show quite clearly that her room was at the front of #26 overlooking Dorset Street, She says so herself. One shouldn't argue against the unarguable I'd say.

Err hold on there! I was reading through the thread Stewart started only the other day, and I recall Sam Flynn found only a couple of reports (both from the same paper - the Telegraph) suggesting that Prater lived "over the shed" - All the other reports stated that she lived over Kelly.

The Telegraph reports, as I recall, were hardly the most accurate anyway, and seemed to suggest...to me anyway... one reporter misunderstanding what he'd been told...or imaginining "the shed" to be at the rear of the property, not realising it was in fact the semi disused front room on the ground floor...or even cribbing the whole thing second-hand from a colleague...he wouldn't after all be the first (or last) journalist to write his report from the warmth and safety of a Fleet Street bar!

Stewart's argument that Prater's place was immediately over that occupied by Kelly certainly convinced me...I believe the "light from the back of the lodging house" references relate to the three/four storey lodging house a couple of doors down, (was it No 30? I'm quoting from memory) clearly visible over the two-storey Millers Court rooftops...and not the front of Crossinghams across Dorset Street.

I don't think the thing's as clear-cut and unarguable as you've made out!

All the best

Dave

[Stephen Thomas]

Stewart's argument that Prater's place was immediately over that occupied by Kelly certainly convinced me...I believe the "light from the back of the lodging house" references relate to the three/four storey lodging house a couple of doors down, (was it No 30? I'm quoting from memory) clearly visible over the two-storey Millers Court rooftops...and not the front of Crossinghams across Dorset Street.

Hello Dave

There is no 'light from the back of the lodging house' reference. Mrs Prater stated that 'the lodging house light' shone through her window and was switched off at 3AM. Do you imagine that lodging house keepers would pay for such a bright light in their back yards til that time of night?

The logical inference is that the light she refers to is the one over the front door of Crossinghams to attract potential punters.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Stephen

I do apologise if, quoting from memory as I was, I've inadvertently overstated things...However, Elizabeth Prater states in her Inquest testimony:

I live at No 20 Room Millers Court upstairs I live in the room over where deceased lived.

And yes, whilst there's a good argument for the lamp being at the front of Crossinghams, the fuller quote direct from the statement reads:

I noticed the lodging house light was out so it was after 4 probably - I heard a cry of oh! Murder! as the cat came on me and I pushed her down, the voice was in a faint voice - the noise seemed to come from close by..."

The noise seemed to come from close by...as I recall the passsage from Dorset Street to Millers Court was some 26 feet long...then add the distance from the end of the passage to MJKs windows (or at least her door) and you have 30 feet...Close by?

From her 9th November Police Statement:-

I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging-house where the windows look into Millers Court. From 1 a.m. to 1.30 am, no one passed up the court if they did I should have seen them

Sam Flynn summarised the press reporting regarding Prater's premises as:-

The Star, 10th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well. She told a Star reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers."

The Daily Telegraph, 10th November: Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window.

Daily News, 10th November: Mrs. Prater, who occupies a room in 26 Dorset street, above that of the deceased stated that she had a chat with Kelly on Thursday morning.

The Echo, 12th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist, deposed , "I live at No. 20 Room in Miller's-court. Deceased lived in the room below me.

The Star, 12th November: Elizabeth Prater, a young married woman living apart from her husband, in 20 Room, Miller's-court, said: My room is just over that of the deceased.

The Morning Advertiser, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of William Prater, said - I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20, in Miller's-court. (No info as to position of room.)

The Daily Telegraph, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below.

St James Gazette, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her.

The Times, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased.

Daily News, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater said-My husband is a boot machinist, but he has deserted me this five years. I live in No. 20 Room, Miller's-court, and the deceased lived below me.

Not exactly a convincing balance in favour of Elizabeth living at the Dorset Street end of the building is it?

I was up again and downstairs in the court at 5.30 am....blah blah...I went to the Ten Bells PH...

Yes OK this could well indicate she needed to visit the khazis at the end of the court before dragging herself down the rubberdub but it's suggestive all the same.

Bearing in mind the later numbering of the rooms comprising 26 Dorset Street, I'm not contending for certain that Elizabeth Prater lived directly above MJK - Just re-iterating my original assessment that:

I don't think the thing's as clear-cut and unarguable as you've made out!

Cheers!

Dave

[Bridewell]

From 1 a.m. to 1.30 am, no one passed up the court if they did I should have seen them

Why would she have seen them? Did she spend the whole of that half hour looking out of her bedroom window? It would seem so, if her statement is accurate. Why did she do that & isn't that suggestive of a room overlooking the court itself, rather than Dorset Street?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Why would she have seen them? Did she spend the whole of that half hour looking out of her bedroom window?

Ah...be careful here Colin...this was the period (1am to 1.20am) she spent on the entrance to Millers Court awaiting her man...I assume the remaining 10 minutes (1.20am to 1.30am) is the time she spent in McCarthy's shop discussing the message to be left for the same...

Dave