Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[moonbegger]

Hi Curious.

Even today there are people who witness horrific crimes that choose to lay low and "mind their own business" rather than speak up.

I have to wonder- in the fall of 1888, how much faith did poorer Londoners have that the police were truly capable of protecting them if they came forward and testified? What about protecting their families? It would be cold comfort to have the police show up when you're already lying dead and utterly desecrated, ripped open like a pig in a butcher's shop! After all, the Ripper had shown that he could kill multiple times in the most brazen fashion and get away with it.

As you say, there's very little chance we'll ever know if a witness saw, heard or knew more than they let on, but based upon the crowded conditions in Whitechapel and the rather 'public' nature of the crimes I can't help feeling that it's likely.

Even if it wasn't enough to actually identify the perpetrator, it might have helped to fill in some of the blanks that drive us all crazy.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archiac / Curious ,

Yes this is totally plausible .. Fear itself can hold a very tight grip on a community , The fear of becoming drawn in , the fear of becoming the new focal point . the Fear of being involved in something you have no desire to be involved in . Growing up in the East End i have witnessed this my self on many occasions , i have also heard first hand story's from my older relatives of the Kray's very own reign of terror , and how everyday people who actually saw stuff opted to keep schtum ( Mouth shut ) No one wants to be a Grass.

Having said that , i know and appreciate that a brutal murderer of women is a completely different story. But fear operates at many different levels , and i'm pretty sure that the fear and terror that was swirling around the East End during that Autumn of Terror , was enough to make anyone think twice .

Cheers

Moonbegger

[Archaic]

Grass?

Hi Moonbegger.

I'm not familiar with your term "Grass"; is it an East End slang term for ending up "six foot under," "pushing up daisies"?

Thanks,
Archaic

[Cogidubnus]

Grass

Grass - An informer...paid or otherwise

Supergrass - ditto but big time

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

Grass - An informer...paid or otherwise

Supergrass - ditto but big time

All the best

Dave

Is 'grass' an old term? What country is it from?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Barbara

East end or cockney rhyming slang I think - grasshopper for copper...1930s I think in origin...though it may just be earlier.

Dave

[Archaic]

Thanks, Dave!

I thought it applied to an informer who ended up buried under the grass.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Cogidubnus]

Wot...like pushin' up the daisies? (the real ones as opposed to daisy roots = boots!)

Dave

[Bridewell]

Thanks, Dave!

I thought it applied to an informer who ended up buried under the grass.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archaic,

Just to add a bit of detail to Dave's earlier answer, a "supergrass" is someone who has been himself involved in criminal activity, but who "turns Queen's evidence" (i.e. agrees to give evidence for the prosecution) in the hope of a reduced sentence. I have seen it used by the UK press with reference to American mafiosi who testify against their former associates.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my own experience is that criminals use "grass" to describe an informer, whereas police officers refer to "snouts". Just to confuse matters somewhat, "snout" is prison slang for tobacco!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Beowulf]

Hi Barbara

East end or cockney rhyming slang I think - grasshopper for copper...1930s I think in origin...though it may just be earlier.

Dave

Not ever heard of that. This is all fascinating.

[Cogidubnus]

Rhyming slang

Hi Barbara

There are a number of websites which may help but this is quite a good one:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/c...ing-slang.html

You do need to remember though that the slang is habitually shortened

viz look = butcher's 'ook = butchers....as in "take a butchers at that"

and also that the rhymes are sometimes a little convoluted by being put through the process more than once!

All the best

Dave

[Archaic]

Ripper-Related Vocabulary & Slang

Hi guys.

Last year we did a really entertaining thread called 'Ripper-Related Vocabulary', which ended up covering all kinds of unusual Victorian slang terms, including Cockney Rhyming Slang.

Ripper-Related Vocabulary Thread: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5465

Feel free to post your contributions to it; a number of people have asked me to re-start the thread, and I've been meaning to... It was a lot of fun.

Thanks & best regards,
Archaic

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.

I'm not familiar with your term "Grass"; is it an East End slang term for ending up "six foot under," "pushing up daisies"?

Thanks,
Archaic

Hi Archaic ,

It is like other posters have explained Cockney rhyming slang .. and the thing is , it is always getting tweaked and modified , however there are some set in stone rhymes that are there for good .

Grass - Grassy ditch = Snitch
Boat - Boat race = face
Pins - Pins and pegs =Legs
Plates - Plates of meat = feet
Daisys -Daisy Roots = Boots
Mincers - Mince pies = Eyes
Barnet - Barnet Fair = Hair
Frog - Frog and Toad = Road
Whistle -Whistle and flute = suit
Apples -Apple and pears =Stairs
Taters - Taters mould = Cold ( Potato mould )
Tom - Tom foolery = Jewelry
Current - Current bun = sun
Ruby - Ruby murry = Curry ( a good ol East End dish )
Jeckel - Jeckel and Hyde = Snide ( fake , not real )

These are just a few of the older ones .. i'm sure you get the idea .. Mainly only the first word is used .
now i'm off for a cup of rosie Lee ( cup of tea ) and listen to a bit of Johnny Pie and Mash ( cash )

Hope that helped a few of you out .

Cheers

Moonbegger .

[Beowulf]

Hi Barbara

East end or cockney rhyming slang I think - grasshopper for copper...1930s I think in origin...though it may just be earlier.

Dave

In checking out the Cockney Rhyming slang I can only say that even if I were born within the sound of Bow Bells I think I would fail this course. This is hard!

Mark me down as a West ender...

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Barbara

The one that puzzled me a bit was a friend who kept on referring to Taxis as Andies or 'andies...Until I was pointed towards Andy McNabb = Cab...though I suspect in this case the origin may lie more in Mockney rather than Cockney!

Of course these last few posts really ought to be on the other thread!

All the best

Dave

[Magpie]

My old man speaks pretty fluent rhyming slang (at least up to the late '70s) but the rhyming slang is only a part of the patois--backslang is far more significant among the cockney and comes close to being a language all it's own. My grandmother was fluent in it, but when she spoke it, it was almost impossible to figure out what she was saying (which of course was the point).