Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[Archaic]

Richardson's Situation

Hi Dave and Bridewell.

The more I think about it, the more I realize what an incredible scary position Richardson found himself in.

There's a mutilated body found in his mother's backyard- and Richardson actually saw the grotesquely mutilated body before it was taken away.

If the body was there was Richardson checked the lock earlier that morning, then he was in close proximity to a knife-mutilated woman while, by his own testimony, using a knife. That kind of coincidence would scare the hell out of anybody! He obviously has to worry whether he will become a suspect.

Then there's his leather work apron left lying in the backyard- after all the earlier "Leather Apron" excitement, he also has to be afraid that a simple work garment will somehow incriminate him- and not just in the eyes of the police, but in the eyes of the public... Who wants to get lynched?

Worst of all, he has to worry about his mother's safety. Does the killer know his mother? Does he frequent her street and even her house? Will the killer harm Mrs. Richardson if her son testifies?

I believe Richardson was a decent man who wanted to do the right thing, but just imagine the combined weight of all those shocks and worries on the shoulders of a single human being- and an uneducated and probably unsophisticated working man at that. No one can envy his position. It's a living nightmare.

All this would have made anybody nervous, and could well have resulted in what seems to be confused testimony. I think that's perfectly natural under the circumstances.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Abby Normal]

Hi Dave and Bridewell.

The more I think about it, the more I realize what an incredible scary position Richardson found himself in.

There's a mutilated body found in his mother's backyard- and Richardson actually saw the grotesquely mutilated body before it was taken away.

If the body was there was Richardson checked the lock earlier that morning, then he was in close proximity to a knife-mutilated woman while, by his own testimony, using a knife. That kind of coincidence would scare the hell out of anybody! He obviously has to worry whether he will become a suspect.

Then there's his leather work apron left lying in the backyard- after all the earlier "Leather Apron" excitement, he also has to be afraid that a simple work garment will somehow incriminate him- and not just in the eyes of the police, but in the eyes of the public... Who wants to get lynched?

Worst of all, he has to worry about his mother's safety. Does the killer know his mother? Does he frequent her street and even her house? Will the killer harm Mrs. Richardson if her son testifies?

I believe Richardson was a decent man who wanted to do the right thing, but just imagine the combined weight of all those shocks and worries on the shoulders of a single human being- and an uneducated and probably unsophisticated working man at that. No one can envy his position. It's a living nightmare.

All this would have made anybody nervous, and could well have resulted in what seems to be confused testimony. I think that's perfectly natural under the circumstances.

Best regards,
Archaic

Absolutely. And to think that he would lie about being there when he was not. A lie that would put him at the scene of the crime at approx time of death with a knife in his hand. Dont think so.

[Hunter]

Well said, Bunny. I'd imagine when he was finally let back onto the premises after the body had been taken away, and Chandler started asking him questions, his mind was running a thousand miles an hour.

Much has been made over a solicitor naturally preferring a layman witness over a medic...I don't believe it...if for no other reason that the professions generally accorded each other mutual respect, in public at least...that much was self preservation (As an example look at the Guilds and their customs).
There must have been some reason why this was not the case here...is there somehing we're not picking up on? Is it, for example, Baxter's antipathy towards the police damning Bagster Phillips by association, or is there something else going on?

Hi Dave,

Wynne Baxter - for the lack of a better analogy- marched to the beat of his own drummer. He respected Phillips' medical abilities despite the contentious exchange between them on giving details of the mutilations. He even took the surgeon's belief that the killer targeted the victim's uterus and displayed anatomical knowledge in doing so and shaped it into his own theory - albeit one that backfired on him.

He also, had been a coroner long enough to understand the variables involved in ascertaining time of death, which the practical Phillips readily admitted. Phillips was not adament in his belief and this very experienced solicitor saw that. If he had only Richardson's testimony to contradict the surgeon's findings on that matter, he probably would have sided with Mr. Phillips. But he had three witnesses who - while off in their own timings to some degree... and Baxter mentioned that - were all in some proximity that, when pieced together, were reasonable to him. Whether he was right or wrong on this will always remain unsolved.

[Archaic]

Death Wish?

Absolutely. And to think that he would lie about being there when he was not. A lie that would put him at the scene of the crime at approx time of death with a knife in his hand. Dont think so.

Hi Abby, I agree with you. I don't think anybody in their right mind would have lied that they were at #29 in the early morning with a knife in their hand if they were not!

Hmmm, lets weigh it in the balances...

Would a man who didn't go to #29's backyard early that morning and sit on the step with a knife in his hand [I]lie[/I] and [I]say[/I] he did, just because he didn't want his mom to be annoyed with him for not bothering to check the lock that day- despite the fact that such a lie could possibly backfire by getting him named as a Ripper suspect and maybe even lynched by his nervous neighbors??

Yeah, I don't think so.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Thanks Hunter.

[Observer]

Hi Archaic

The voice of reason at long last !!!

Regards

Observer

[Archaic]

Thanks, Observer!

I try.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Ginger]

One more thing occurs to me - the contemporary newspaper drawings seem to indicate that the cellar door was a shallow one, set almost flush against the end wall of the house, while the later photographs show it to be quite deeply set.

Given that Mrs. Richardson was known to have had problems with thieves breaking into that cellar, I wonder if the 1888 door was replaced at some point, perhaps with one set deeper into the doorway to allow for a different, more secure type of mounting?

[moonbegger]

Evening All

The Voice of reason is still a voice riddled with conjecture non the less !
Time is the one thing that can, and should be relied upon without fail. The combination of medical science and time are the tools we should be using to unearth this monster . Not people , People make mistakes , no matter how observant or truthful or in control we think we are .. we crash cars , forget birthdays , anniversaries , names , we think we see Big Foots , and UFO's and the loch ness monster ( and all that is just me ) And so in light of such compelling Medical and Time Evidence at hand , lets not just disregard it and rely solely on what someone thinks they may have seen, or what they think they may have heard , at a time they thought it was .

cheers
moonbegger

[Archaic]

Hi Moonbegger.

As far as I'm aware, none of the "Time evidence" seems to agree.

Best regards,
Archaic

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.

As far as I'm aware, none of the "Time evidence" seems to agree.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archaic ..

If you actually place Everyone exactly where the said they were at the time they said they were there .. and cross reference it with Dr Phillips original TOD ( from which he never strayed ) You find that it all fits together like a well fitting glove on the hand of a man who is in need of a well fitted glove .
4-430am Annie murdered
4.45 .. Richardson checks lock , leaning forward and peering low to his right hand side , completely missing Annies dead body low to his left , masked by the self closing back door ( or maybe didn't even bother going out to yard at all , Just checked stairs and passage for unwanted guests )
5.15-5.20 cadosh hears kerfuffle next door ( what he is hearing is a prostitute and her client discover poor ol Annie ) and possibly robbing her rings and riffling her pockets . The prostitute may have voiced her disapproval "No" .
5.30am Long passes by 29 on her way to work .. not paying any attention to couple outside 29 ( the couple who just left the yard ) " Will you " Keep your mouth shut " yes" .
And finally Dr Phillips shows up at 6.30 and rightly declares the Body of Annie has been dead for at least 2 hours , probably more ..

i should also add that i am a firm non believer in Long's positive identification of Annies 4 day old remains .. a woman she passed on the street and paid no attention to 5 days earlier ?

A very well fitting glove me thinks

cheers all
Moonbegger

[Jon Guy]

Hi Moonbegger

i should also add that i am a firm non believer in Long's positive identification of Annies 4 day old remains .. a woman she passed on the street and paid no attention to 5 days earlier ?

Would she have not, like John Richardson and many others at the market, heard about the murder in Hanbury St within an hour or so of it happening?

She may not have connected the dots straight away and assumed that the body had just been found and the murder took place during the night. On reading the newspaper reports during the following days she may then have realised the importance of her sighting.

[Hunter]

5.15-5.20 cadosh hears kerfuffle next door ( what he is hearing is a prostitute and her client discover poor ol Annie ) and possibly robbing her rings and riffling her pockets . The prostitute may have voiced her disapproval "No" .

I realize this was a rough area with some rough people in it, but do you really think that someone - especially two persons - would see a woman with her head nearly severed, her intestines over her right shoulder and abdominal flaps over the other, laying there 'spread eagle' with a cavity in her pelvic reason... and one of them just decides to take a couple of brass rings from her cold dead hand?

And one says 'NO' in disapproval to taking the rings, instead off the certain shock of seeing a body done in like this?

[Abby Normal]

Evening All

The Voice of reason is still a voice riddled with conjecture non the less !
Time is the one thing that can, and should be relied upon without fail. The combination of medical science and time are the tools we should be using to unearth this monster . Not people , People make mistakes , no matter how observant or truthful or in control we think we are .. we crash cars , forget birthdays , anniversaries , names , we think we see Big Foots , and UFO's and the loch ness monster ( and all that is just me ) And so in light of such compelling Medical and Time Evidence at hand , lets not just disregard it and rely solely on what someone thinks they may have seen, or what they think they may have heard , at a time they thought it was .

cheers
moonbegger

Nah-we definitely see UFOs

[moonbegger]

Nah-we definitely see UFOs

Hi Abby ..

Yeah , Bigfoots too , although i do think Nessie could be a conspiracy

moonbegger.

[moonbegger]

I realize this was a rough area with some rough people in it, but do you really think that someone - especially two persons - would see a woman with her head nearly severed, her intestines over her right shoulder and abdominal flaps over the other, laying there 'spread eagle' with a cavity in her pelvic reason... and one of them just decides to take a couple of brass rings from her cold dead hand?

And one says 'NO' in disapproval to taking the rings, instead off the certain shock of seeing a body done in like this?

Hello Hunter ,

How does that saying go " to walk a mile in someone else's shoes " ..
The thing is Hunter , When you are living your life on the very bottom rung of the ladder, possibly lower , the grim reality of day to day living becomes its very own horror show . Moral's can sometime take a back seat , if that is you can afford them to begin with ! We see it in War, and unfortunately we also see it in peace time .. from an opportunity to grab souvenirs off a fallen enemy soldier with his body blown to shreds .. Watches , chains , and other personal artifacts , which some poor soul has no need for any longer , All the way through to Young kids being killed for their designer running shoes , Mobile phones ( ect) ..
We might all like to think we are better than that , we are a step above , or we have a moral code that can never be broken .. but the truth is we are just kidding ourselves , The Human being is capable of some horrible acts of cruelty, as well as some occasional kindness . but given the right unfortunate string of circumstances we are, each and everyone of us capable of some inhumane acts ( A mile in someone else's shoes )

Sorry about ranting on

moonbegger.