Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[curious]

OK one step further...Mrs Long has been told Annie Chapman (who she knows, having bought items from her) is dead, and is thus predisposed to identify her as the woman she saw at 0515 or thereabouts...she correctly identifies Annie Chapman in the mortuary but is mistaken in that this isn't in fact the woman she saw on Saturday morning...



The body (which has been there for an hour or two) is discovered - prostitute issues a muffled "no" in horror...so far, so good...we're square with Cadosch's testimony, square with the medical evidence, and square with Jack's propensity to murder in the hours of darkness...

And then what?

Logic would say the prostitute faints in horror and pitches forward against the fence...However, Cadosch says "No" was heard on his 0525 visit to the yard...he then goes back indoors, and revisits the yard at 0528 and it is only on the second visit he hears the thump...how can this be reconciled folks? Even discarding one witnesses testimony and slightly bending anothers, it still doesn't seem to tie up...something hit the fence some minutes after "no"


Dave

Hi, Dave,

I suppose it is possible Mrs. Long also knew Annie, but I don't know that that was ever established.

Mrs. Richardson is the one who mentioned she had bought crochet work from Annie because she felt sorry for her. So therefore, Annie knew the house which is why I suspect she came there to sleep in the hallway.

Since Mrs. Long made the trek every day and since Annie knew the house and was there sometime, it is possible Mrs. Long at least recognized Annie.

About what Cadosch heard:

I get the impression, strictly from memory here, that Cadosch heard a whispered conversation.

Perhaps the conversation was whether or not to go get the police or what to do. Let's say the people involved were not in any position to be able to go to the police. "No" cold have been the muffled surprise at finding the body or an emphatic "No we're not going to the police."

As the couple stared at the body, the rings are spotted and Annie certainly had no further use for them.

The bump against the fence could have been made as someone tried to skirt the body and stumbled up against the fence.

That was one reason I suggested someone other than the killer stole the rings.

Annie's body was in a tight space between the steps and the fence, getting around her without stepping on her would be awkward.

I don't know that it would take 2-3 minutes or longer. Perhaps working up the nerve to rob the body might . . ..

I don't know. I just see this as a possible explanation to reconcile the condition of the body and Cadosch's testimony.

These thoughts came to me only after it seemed clear to me that the body had been there longer than a 5:30 time of death would allow. Therefore, there must be reasonable explanations for the testimonies . . . There may be other explanations that make more sense.

curious

[Cogidubnus]

Interesting though, that as soon as one (seemingly reasonably) skews the witness evidence to suit the medical evidence, such problems creep in...

All the best

Dave

[Archaic]

London Nobody Knows- Position of Back Door

Hi everyone. I watched The London Nobody Knows for the millionth time, and did a few screenshots. Most of you will have seen this 29 Hanbury Street clip before, but stopping the film allows one time to examine the details.

I believe this is the same back door that was there in 1888, and it certainly looks decrepit enough! (One would expect the fence to have been replaced multiple times.) As you can see, the open door stopped roughly in line with the steps rather than swinging farther back.

So what do you think, could the position of the door have helped obstruct Richardson's view of Annie's body if it was there at the time?

Would it make a difference if he was sitting or if he was standing?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Thingy Above Door- Old Bell?

I've been wondering what that thing at top center of the door-frame is, so I might as well ask here... almost looks like an old bell.

I wondered if maybe before the backyards were fenced in- back when the neighborhood was nicer- the back door might have been used as a "tradesman's entrance" and they would have pulled a string to ring a bell?

Or is it something else entirely? Does anybody know?

Thanks very much,
Archaic

[curious]

But hasn't the witness testimony here always been questioned?

There has been hours and hours of discussion trying to make the times fit and trying to figure out Richardson's testimony. All really to no avail.

I still believe that the real evidence is the condition of the body and everything else must be interpreted around that.

[curious]

Hi everyone. I watched The London Nobody Knows for the millionth time, and did a few screenshots. Most of you will have seen this 29 Hanbury Street clip before, but stopping the film allows one time to examine the details.

I believe this is the same back door that was there in 1888, and it certainly looks decrepit enough! (One would expect the fence to have been replaced multiple times.) As you can see, the open door stopped roughly in line with the steps rather than swinging farther back.

So what do you think, could the position of the door have helped obstruct Richardson's view of Annie's body if it was there at the time?

Would it make a difference if he was sitting or if he was standing?

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi, Archaic,
Very interesting photo. Thanks for sharing it.

Yes, that does look like an old bell, doesn't it. Wonder if it was?

Also, I think that the door could have blocked the view of the body if a person were standing. Especially a person concerned only with something to his right.

I also tend to think that the height of a person would have some effect on seeing or not seeing the body beneath a door. A taller person would be less likely to see under the door, it seems to me.

Also, wasn't the door on a spring? Did a person have to keep pushing against the door to keep it open? So Richardson, standing, would have his left hand pushing against the door, while looking to his right.

Guess work, totally.

curious

[Rubyretro]

Impossible to know -it depends on how advanced you were on the step, leaning back etc; Where you glanced ; For how long ; Whether you you were lost in your own thoughts or attentive to surroundings....I couldn't say...

[moonbegger]

Hi, Dave,

I suppose it is possible Mrs. Long also knew Annie, but I don't know that that was ever established.

Mrs. Richardson is the one who mentioned she had bought crochet work from Annie because she felt sorry for her. So therefore, Annie knew the house which is why I suspect she came there to sleep in the hallway.

Since Mrs. Long made the trek every day and since Annie knew the house and was there sometime, it is possible Mrs. Long at least recognized Annie.

About what Cadosch heard:

I get the impression, strictly from memory here, that Cadosch heard a whispered conversation.

Perhaps the conversation was whether or not to go get the police or what to do. Let's say the people involved were not in any position to be able to go to the police. "No" cold have been the muffled surprise at finding the body or an emphatic "No we're not going to the police."

As the couple stared at the body, the rings are spotted and Annie certainly had no further use for them.

The bump against the fence could have been made as someone tried to skirt the body and stumbled up against the fence.

That was one reason I suggested someone other than the killer stole the rings.

Annie's body was in a tight space between the steps and the fence, getting around her without stepping on her would be awkward.

I don't know that it would take 2-3 minutes or longer. Perhaps working up the nerve to rob the body might . . ..

I don't know. I just see this as a possible explanation to reconcile the condition of the body and Cadosch's testimony.

These thoughts came to me only after it seemed clear to me that the body had been there longer than a 5:30 time of death would allow. Therefore, there must be reasonable explanations for the testimonies . . . There may be other explanations that make more sense.

curious

Hi Curious , Dave
I Think Curious nailed it here , I Couldn't have put it better myself .. It really is the only explanation that ties up all the loose ends , it even accounts for Annies torn off rings ..

Hi Bridwell
I was only joking about your " misdirection conspiracy "
As far as the " fence or three " i was referring to my earlier post about sound and Acoustics , and how certain conditions can affect one's perception.

Cheers All
Moonbegger .

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Curious , Dave
I Think Curious nailed it here , I Couldn't have put it better myself .. It really is the only explanation that ties up all the loose ends , it even accounts for Annies torn off rings ..

Oh I don't for a moment think it's the only explanation...

Just as a f'rinstance what if Bagster-Phillips was drunk that day, the witnesses were right and he wasn't? (Let's be clear I'm not seriously contending this, just demonstrating other explanations may be possible)...

What do we know about the esteemed medic?

Come to that, how much do we really know about the witnesses?

Dave

[Archaic]

Self-Closing Mechanism of #29's Door

Hi, Archaic,
Very interesting photo. Thanks for sharing it.

Yes, that does look like an old bell, doesn't it. Wonder if it was?

Also, I think that the door could have blocked the view of the body if a person were standing. Especially a person concerned only with something to his right.

I also tend to think that the height of a person would have some effect on seeing or not seeing the body beneath a door. A taller person would be less likely to see under the door, it seems to me.

Also, wasn't the door on a spring? Did a person have to keep pushing against the door to keep it open? So Richardson, standing, would have his left hand pushing against the door, while looking to his right.

Guess work, totally.curious

Hi Curious; you're very welcome. I agree that a person concerned with checking locks located to the right would be unlikely to see under the bottom edge of the door- especially in the dim light of early morning.

Yes, the door was supposed to be on some sort of a self-closing mechanism, and I wonder if that is what the odd metal bar sticking up over the door could be?

If you look at the top of the door, there's a piece of rusty metal sticking up diagonally from the top back corner of the door, roughly above the line of its hinges.

The metal bar appears to have pulled loose from the wall; you can see the lighter mark it exposed when it came away. In this photo the door merely sags and hangs open without snapping shut.

In my opinion, a self-closing mechanism on the door would mean that the door would have partially closed and physically pressed against any person standing or sitting on the steps, thus further obstructing their view into the yard, especially the area behind the door.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Ginger]

Hi Curious; you're very welcome. I agree that a person concerned with checking locks located to the right would be unlikely to see under the bottom edge of the door- especially in the dim light of early morning.

Assuming that Richardson was telling the truth, and that Chapman was already lying dead in the little alcove beside the stairs, how might he have been able to miss seeing her? Presumably his only intent in going to the back door was to check on his mother's cellar door. He needn't do anything except push the door open a little and look to the right. Right then, for whatever reason, his boot hurts him, he remembers the knife, and decides he's going to take care of that right here. How would he sit?

The back door, or so I've often heard it asserted, is one that closes by itself, either with a spring or by gravity. Richardson said that he sat on the second step. He was almost certainly sitting with the door partially open - to have shut the door, he'd have had to go down the steps far enough to let the door clear and shut (into the yard, basically), then come back to sit on the step. Had he done that, it would have been impossible to have missed the body, assuming it was there. Assuming Richardson to have been truthful and the body to have already been there, then, he never went so far down the steps as to allow the door to close.

If he sits on the steps, facing straight out into the yard, then the door will be bumping against his left arm as it tries to close. He presumably wanted both hands to work on the boot, so that's going to be awkward. What if, as he sat down, he turned to the right, so that the door was bumping against his back instead, and not interfering with his left arm? He keeps that position as he works, facing away from the location of the body. As he gets up to go, he turns to the right until he faces the doorway again, his right arm holding the door open as he goes back inside the house.

If it were done that way, it lets him go out on the steps where the light is good to fix his boot without ever facing toward the spot where the body was found. If you imagine yourself doing it that way, it's not a particularly awkward series of moves, and letting your back prop the door open works rather better than letting your left arm do it.

If the body were lying there at the time, though, there's still the matter of the smell of fresh blood and guts, which would presumably have been quite strong. I note that the little alleyway a few doors over was the entrance to a "Barber's Yard". If this were a branch of the Barber the horse-butcher's, then blood and guts might not have been an unusual smell in that backyard.

[lynn cates]

steak

Hello Ginger.

"there's still the matter of the smell of fresh blood and guts, which would presumably have been quite strong"

Not necessarily. Found a website that discusses this. The claim there is that it smells about like a package of raw steak opened up. It is described as "inoffensive."

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

If Richardson is telling the truth about sitting on the step, there is absolutely NO way he does not see Annie's body. It was light enough to see the lock was secure so it would be light enough to see a body. he would have sat down and as he looked at his shoe her dead face would have been staring right up at him literally inches away (down and slightly to his left). Her body would have been in his line of sight right there. Come on people!

[Abby Normal]

Hello Ginger.

"there's still the matter of the smell of fresh blood and guts, which would presumably have been quite strong"

Not necessarily. Found a website that discusses this. The claim there is that it smells about like a package of raw steak opened up. It is described as "inoffensive."

Cheers.
LC

Perhaps fresh blood/meat, but guts? No at that close distance he probably could have smelled that!

[lynn cates]

smell

Hello Abby. Go here, post #7 by "brossa."

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-534476.html

Cheers.
LC