Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fleetwood Mac,

I hope it wasn't your initials on MJK's wall.

Medico-Legal Aspects of Death—

Time of onset of rigor mortis is variable. In summer it may take 1—4 hours to develop while in winter it may take 3—6 hours to appear. The progress of rigor mortis is also variable according to weather conditions . . . If the atmosphere is dry and cold, the onset is slow . . . as compared to hot and humid conditions where onset is fast . . ."

New Scientist, May 1986—

"The time that rigor mortis takes to set in varies according to temperature. To some extent, the rate of onset follows the general rule for chemical reactions—the lower the temperature, the slower the reaction. But there are anomalies. Between 38ºC [100F] and 25ºC [77F], a decrease of 10ºC [50F] almost halves the rate at which rigor sets in. At lower temperatures, however, rigor sets in more quickly than it does at some higher temperatures. at 2ºC [35.6F], for example, rigor sets in faster than it does at 15ºC [59F] and at about the same rate as it does at 22ºC [71.6F]."

The recorded low temperature for 8th September 1888 was 7.9ºC [46.3F].

Allegedly, Annie Chapman was last seen alive at 5.30 am.

Dr. Phillips—"On Saturday last I was called by the police at 6.20 a.m. to 29 Hanbury-street, and arrived at half-past six . . . Stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but it was commencing . . ."

I'll have to leave it to more scientific minds to work this out.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

rigours of investigation

Hello MB, Mac. Found this about rigor mortis. Note the 10 minute possibility.

Cheers.
LC

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm

[lynn cates]

temp

Hello Simon. Thanks. That helps. Bagster seemed to allow that the temperature were a factor that morning.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hi All
There is also this comparison to Edodows murder regarding Rigor mortis ..
Dr. Brown stated that he was called to Mitre Square shortly after 2:00 a.m. and arrived there at around 2:20. By this time Catherine Eddowes had been dead for roughly forty minutes. Brown observed that "the body had been mutilated, and was quite warm - no rigor mortis." We can therfore say that, after roughly forty minutes, a body with extensive mutilations that was found under cool outdoor conditions was examined and described as being "quite warm." How do we reconcile this with the idea that the body of Annie Chapman was found to be almost completely cold after only the passing of twenty more minutes? We can't. It is very difficult to believe that in under twenty minutes almost all body heat would have dissipated into the morning air. This would be the work of a couple of hours, not minutes. Again, that observation is more in line with Dr. Phillips' opinion as to the time of death of Annie Chapman.

moonbegger

[Mitch Rowe]

Maybe Richardson actually confronted or saw Annie and JTR in the hallway or heard something and decided to leave. Then after Annie was found he was afraid for his Mothers safety and made up a story to tell Police? If he didnt know at the time of the confrontation that he was talking to JTR and then left for work he might have been very frightened later. He puts himself ther in case of witnesses who may have seen him. He makes up a story about cutting the boot to make others believe Annie was not there so he doesnt have to explain much. When he realizes that Police may ask why they didnt find a piece of leather he says the knife was dull.

[lynn cates]

variance

Hello MB. Yes, I think Vanderlinden made an analogous argument in the dissertation.

Just one question, does rigor mortis ALWAYS occur just the same in each person?

Cheers.
LC

[Archaic]

That's an interesting idea, Mitch.

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I'm sure he was very concerned for his mother's safety; who wouldn't be?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleetwood Mac,

I hope it wasn't your initials on MJK's wall.

Medico-Legal Aspects of Death—

Time of onset of rigor mortis is variable. In summer it may take 1—4 hours to develop while in winter it may take 3—6 hours to appear. The progress of rigor mortis is also variable according to weather conditions . . . If the atmosphere is dry and cold, the onset is slow . . . as compared to hot and humid conditions where onset is fast . . ."

New Scientist, May 1986—

"The time that rigor mortis takes to set in varies according to temperature. To some extent, the rate of onset follows the general rule for chemical reactions—the lower the temperature, the slower the reaction. But there are anomalies. Between 38ºC [100F] and 25ºC [77F], a decrease of 10ºC [50F] almost halves the rate at which rigor sets in. At lower temperatures, however, rigor sets in more quickly than it does at some higher temperatures. at 2ºC [35.6F], for example, rigor sets in faster than it does at 15ºC [59F] and at about the same rate as it does at 22ºC [71.6F]."

The recorded low temperature for 8th September 1888 was 7.9ºC [46.3F].

Allegedly, Annie Chapman was last seen alive at 5.30 am.

Dr. Phillips—"On Saturday last I was called by the police at 6.20 a.m. to 29 Hanbury-street, and arrived at half-past six . . . Stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but it was commencing . . ."

I'll have to leave it to more scientific minds to work this out.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

I'm a seasoned campaigner, mate, far more interested in sadism than leaving signs and clues as impenetrable as a South American rain forest.

I think we'd agree that in those conditions the chances are that rigor mortis would not have set in by 6.30 were she killed at 5.20.

This leaves us with probability.

Which in turn leaves us with weighing this up against the probability of Long/Cadosh/Richardson.

Richardson and Long are redundant for me for the reasons stated.

Which leaves us with a probability of what we know of rigor mortis versus the probability of noises and whispers equalling a murder.

It's not even close for me, and I'd imagine that logic would agree with me.

Also, in the event you want to predict what human beings will do then look at how human beings behave, and events suggest Jack killed in the dark.

[moonbegger]

Maybe Richardson actually confronted or saw Annie and JTR in the hallway or heard something and decided to leave. Then after Annie was found he was afraid for his Mothers safety and made up a story to tell Police? If he didnt know at the time of the confrontation that he was talking to JTR and then left for work he might have been very frightened later. He puts himself ther in case of witnesses who may have seen him. He makes up a story about cutting the boot to make others believe Annie was not there so he doesnt have to explain much. When he realizes that Police may ask why they didnt find a piece of leather he says the knife was dull.

Hi Mitch ,

The only problem with that is , According to Dr Phillips , Annie would still have been dead n the yard at least 25 mins by the time Richardson showed up at 4.45am ..
i do think however, he either saw her dead body , and for the reasons you mention, he panicked , also the fact that he was at the scene of a fresh murder and in possession of a knife ( and not the blunt one he produced for the inquest ) baring he mind he's thinking he may be in some altercation with some thieves who were breaking into the yard lock up, he would want some protection ( just like any of us would pick up a baseball bat or some kind of a weapon if we had to confront someone breaking into our house or yard )
Either that or like i mentioned , he only half opened the door and peered to the right completely missing Annies body .

cheers

moonbegger

[Cogidubnus]

Richardson

Either that or like i mentioned , he only half opened the door and peered to the right completely missing Annies body .

One is led almost to believe he was never there at all...was elbowed into testifying by his dear old mum (who thought he was), realised he'd backed himself into a corner, then started embroidering...first the trimmed boot story, then the rusty knife addition, then the non-trimmed boot story...I don't think he makes a particularly credible witness at all...in fact he made a proper old cat's dinner of it!

Dave

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch ,

The only problem with that is , According to Dr Phillips , Annie would still have been dead n the yard at least 25 mins by the time Richardson showed up at 4.45am ..
i do think however, he either saw her dead body , and for the reasons you mention, he panicked , also the fact that he was at the scene of a fresh murder and in possession of a knife ( and not the blunt one he produced for the inquest ) baring he mind he's thinking he may be in some altercation with some thieves who were breaking into the yard lock up, he would want some protection ( just like any of us would pick up a baseball bat or some kind of a weapon if we had to confront someone breaking into our house or yard )
Either that or like i mentioned , he only half opened the door and peered to the right completely missing Annies body .

cheers

moonbegger

25 mins isnt too far to be off. If Richardson had seen the body I think that he would have been startled enough to report to Police ASAP. But if he saw them both alive he may have thought they were just another punter and prossy. For all we know he may have confronted them. Told them this was his Mothers house and accepted payment to leave them alone. Annie may have given him her rings if she had felt she was going to make more money from JTRs possibly generous offer of payment for her services. If that was the case Richardson would have been highly motivated to lie.

[moonbegger]

Holy Cow ..
I started this thread to try and clean up the mess , Not add to it

[lynn cates]

bienvenidos, Amigo

Hello MB. Welcome to ripper studies. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Ditto to that, Lynn.

Its like picking an apple you want from a tree; you shake the limb doing it and a whole bunch more fall around you... and some of 'ums gonna have worms in 'em.

[Magpie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there also some sign of surface decomposition as well as the rigor?