Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[moonbegger]

Hi All ,

Please Excuse the pun

Much confusion and contradiction , has always been the accepted norm in regards to the Hanbury Street murder of Annie Chapman .. Both Albert Cadosch and Elizibeth Long's Statements only become relevant ( and contradictory ) if we deem John Richardson to be telling the whole truth and without embellishment . The more i read his highly contradictory statements to both police and at the inquest the more i am inclined to believe that Richardson merely opened the yard door ever so slightly to check the padlock on his right hand side , completely missing Annie's body on his left , being hidden by the half opened door ( check out James Mason's visit to 29 Hanbury street on you tube to get Richardson's obstructed view of the yard as the back door slowly opens ) He added the bit on about sitting on the steps days later .. filled with discrepancies .. but giving false validity to Long and Cadosh's testimony's ... but adding a lot of weight to Dr Phillips TOD .. For me this makes a lot more uncluttered sense , and gives us a solid timeline that also fits in with the murder times of Polly and Martha ...

So What thinks you ?

Cheers ,
Moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

the Q

Hello MB. I'm not sure why Long and Cadosch are important here. The REAL question is, as you rightly suppose, based upon whether John were a bit derelict in his duties and lied about looking left. Let's say he lied.

Now the question becomes, IF he had looked left, would he have seen Annie's body?

For the sake of argument, let's say he would have. Now, all that remains is

1. To harmonise the time of the Long and Cadosch "sightings"

and

2. To explain what REALLY was being described by them when they spoke of, in her case, the "foreign looking" man, and, in his case, the articulation of "No."

I suppose the least bad options may be the ones provided by the late David Yost in his dissertation and another by Wolf Vanderlinden. Are you familiar with their work?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. I'm not sure why Long and Cadosch are important here. The REAL question is, as you rightly suppose, based upon whether John were a bit derelict in his duties and lied about looking left. Let's say he lied.

Now the question becomes, IF he had looked left, would he have seen Annie's body?

For the sake of argument, let's say he would have. Now, all that remains is

1. To harmonise the time of the Long and Cadosch "sightings"

and

2. To explain what REALLY was being described by them when they spoke of, in her case, the "foreign looking" man, and, in his case, the articulation of "No."

I suppose the least bad options may be the ones provided by the late David Yost in his dissertation and another by Wolf Vanderlinden. Are you familiar with their work?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn .
Are you suggesting that maybe Richardson did see Annie's dead body but decided to say nothing ? Maybe panicked a bit , because of the fact that he was at the scene of a murder in possession of a Knife ( and not the one I'm guessing he produced for the inquest ) i could see how that rolls .. and then maybe inventing the " sitting on the top step " story days later in order to cover his own actions of saying nothing . This line of thought Vindicates Dr Phillips original TOD .. And hows this for harmonising Long and Cadosh's statements .. The couple that Long saw talking a little ways down from 29 at 5.30 had just come out of a yard adjasient to 29 ..which goes along perfectly with Cadosh hearing a slight kerfuffle going on in a yard one over from 29. ( He said wasn't really sure where the faint "No" came from ) So we can place Cadosh in a yard on one side of 29 and the mystery man and his Lass in a yard on the other side of 29 .. and poor Annie in the middle . the only loose end in this scenario is Longs ID of Annie's dead body almost 5 days after the event . An ID which I for one , don't have a problem casting into the least probable tray .

cheers ,

moonbegger .

[Magpie]

Richardson lied.

The only question is 1) Did he see the body, panic, and run; or 2) Did he shirk his "daily" inspection of the cellar and see nothing?

[lynn cates]

time

Hello MB.

"Are you suggesting that maybe Richardson did see Annie's dead body but decided to say nothing?"

Not a bit of it. I think he never looked left. If he had, I believe he would have seen nothing.

Time was I thought Annie was killed about 4.30. I believed that because I accepted all that rot about a sexual serial killer and could not imagine a high risk daylight kill. Once I got that nonsense out of my system, I am quite happy with Mrs. Long's sighting.

Your theory will work fine IF there is a need for an early killing.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB.

"Are you suggesting that maybe Richardson did see Annie's dead body but decided to say nothing?"

Not a bit of it. I think he never looked left. If he had, I believe he would have seen nothing.

Time was I thought Annie was killed about 4.30. I believed that because I accepted all that rot about a sexual serial killer and could not imagine a high risk daylight kill. Once I got that nonsense out of my system, I am quite happy with Mrs. Long's sighting.

Your theory will work fine IF there is a need for an early killing.

Cheers.
LC

Now i am totally Confused

oh well .. is there someone out there who can translate for me pleeez

[lynn cates]

disambiguation

Hello MB. Oops, did not mean to be murky. I shall try again.

There are several items running concurrently here. Let's sort them out.

1. What was Annie's TOD? As I said above, at one time I thought Phillips correct and that Annie died at 4.30. Why did I believe this? Well, I could not imagine this "sexual serial killer who liked to taunt the police" waiting until daylight to kill--and that in a back yard of a house filled with people. Now I think Annie was killed by a violent and dissociated person who was largely unaware of his surroundings.

2. Was Richardson a good witness? Emphatically, no. First, he claimed to stand on the steps. Later, the claim was that he sat and cut leather off his shoe. Finally, he claimed that he did no such thing but needed a different knife later.

3. Did Richardson look left? I believe that not. But IF he had, what would he have seen? 2 years ago, I thought he would have seen Annie's mutilated body. Today, I think he would have seen nothing.

4. Did Mrs. Long see Annie's slayer? Formerly, I thought not. Now, I think so.

5. Did Cadosh "hear" parts of Annie's death? Formerly, I thought not. Now, I think so.

Hope this is a bit clearer.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hi Lynn ,
Thanks for clearing that up
1) Annie was Killed around 4am , 2) At about 4.45 Richardson , did or did not see Annie's dead body when he opened the back door slightly and glanced to his left to check padlock . 3) At about 5.10am " foreign looking man" and his lady enter the yard at the back of 31 Hanbury st ( or adjacent yard ) 4) At about 5.20am Albert Cadosh enters the yard at 27 , hears but pays no real attention to the faint "No" he hears across the fence ( he is hearing the couple two fences over in the yard at 31 ) .. 5) at about 5.25 foreign looking man and his lady leave the yard and are chatting outside 29/31 Hanbury street. And then 6) Elizibeth Long walks along Hanbury St at 5.30am on her regular schedule and route work bound , and passes by "foreign looking man" and his lady , but doesn't pay them much attention . Then days later when she realises she has the opportunity to paint herself in to the popular picture of the day , she comes forward .. ( maybe a bit harsh ) And then finally 7) Dr Phillips shows up at 6.30am and gives his probable TOD as at the very latest 4.30am ...
this for me is the most likely and probable timeline of events ..

cheers ,
moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello MB. Thanks.

Were "FLM" and the lady, punter and unfortunate? If not, one wonders why they did not come forward. If they were, why did they not go into the yard for sex? If they were leaving the yard, why did they not see Annie?

Any particular reason for favouring the earlier TOD for Annie?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Good time for a chat...

Hi Lynn ,
Thanks for clearing that up
1) Annie was Killed around 4am , 2) At about 4.45 Richardson , did or did not see Annie's dead body when he opened the back door slightly and glanced to his left to check padlock . 3) At about 5.10am " foreign looking man" and his lady enter the yard at the back of 31 Hanbury st ( or adjacent yard ) 4) At about 5.20am Albert Cadosh enters the yard at 27 , hears but pays no real attention to the faint "No" he hears across the fence ( he is hearing the couple two fences over in the yard at 31 ) .. 5) at about 5.25 foreign looking man and his lady leave the yard and are chatting outside 29/31 Hanbury street. And then 6) Elizibeth Long walks along Hanbury St at 5.30am on her regular schedule and route work bound , and passes by "foreign looking man" and his lady , but doesn't pay them much attention . Then days later when she realises she has the opportunity to paint herself in to the popular picture of the day , she comes forward .. ( maybe a bit harsh ) And then finally 7) Dr Phillips shows up at 6.30am and gives his probable TOD as at the very latest 4.30am ...
this for me is the most likely and probable timeline of events ..

cheers ,
moonbegger.

That's a good one moonbeggar, perhaps even odd enough to be true. One question, do prostitutes and clients typically continue chatting after transacting business or even when failing to transact business?

I didn't realize they were such chatty Kathy's...........


Greg

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Thanks.

Were "FLM" and the lady, punter and unfortunate? If not, one wonders why they did not come forward. If they were, why did they not go into the yard for sex? If they were leaving the yard, why did they not see Annie?

Any particular reason for favouring the earlier TOD for Annie?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ,
YES 'FLM" was with unfortunate . YES , they did go through to the back yard next door to 29 for whatever. ( not sure of the numbers either side of 29 ) situation was as follows { Cadosh in the yard left of 29 , Annie , Dead in the yard of 29, "FLM" and unfortunate in the yard to the right of 29 } Three different yards , each with their own entrance and exit's .. hence , when "FLM + U left the back yard .. Annie was Across the fence , how could they see her ! and TOD matches up with dr Phillips correct reasoning .

cheers
moonbegger

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

John Richardson was about as reliable as a ten-bob watch.

Echo, 16th September 1888 -



Four days after the concept of Leather Apron had been laid to rest.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello MB. Thanks.

"YES 'FLM" was with unfortunate.'

Very well.

"YES , they did go through to the back yard next door to 29 for whatever."

Well, do we know about access there? I presume this was #25?

"(not sure of the numbers either side of 29)"

Well, should be #27 (Cadosch) and #31--other side of #29.

"situation was as follows {Cadosh in the yard left of 29 , Annie , Dead in the yard of 29, "FLM" and unfortunate in the yard to the right of 29}'

OK, then. #31, I suppose.

"Three different yards , each with their own entrance and exits .. hence, when "FLM + U left the back yard .. Annie was Across the fence, how could they see her!"

OK, I see your idea. And so when they left, they walked over in front of #29 and paused to chat?

"and TOD matches up with dr Phillips correct reasoning."

Well, it should. Of course, Dr. Phillips issued a caveat about the temperature, and rigor mortis is a tricky thing.

What of the fall against the paling on the side adjacent to #29? Your scenario accounts for the "No"--which Cadosch could not properly locate. But the fall would have been next #29.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hi Lynn ,
i think we are on the same page at last Here is the thing about Longs statement , What she actually stated was that "FLM" and unfortunate were "standing only a few yards nearer Brick Lane from 29, Hanbury Street" In effect the couple was standing in front of number 31 Hanbury Street, also Amelia Richardson stated during her testimony that "you can open the front and back doors of any of the houses about there. There are People coming in and going out all through the night" ...

Also DR Phillips was only relating weather conditions , He stood firm by his original TOD .. in-fact it should be noted that the cold weather conditions and cold surface of the ground would in-fact slow down the onset of Rigor mortis , not speed it up . The onset had just began , thats why Dr Phillips said "she was dead at least 2 hours , if not longer " .

Hi Greg , i don't think there was any code of practice regarding how "chatty" you could or couldn't be with a client back then .. she may have even known him ( a happy customer is a repeat customer )

cheers

moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

loud

Hello MB. Well, we may be converging slowly.

It still looks like Long has them near the shutters of #29. By the way, they were both talking loudly. So I am delighted that someone, like yourself, who believes in a single killer does not try to equate Annie's killer with FLM. After all, if he is a stealth killer, why stand outside a window and talk loudly?

You are right that Phillips stayed with the TOD.

Cheers.
LC