Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[RockySullivan]

Not to mention he produced a rusty table knife at the inquest and when the coroner said it wasn't sharp enough he claimed he actually used a different knife later at the market. So if he wasn't cutting the leather while sitting on the steps with a knife out (as he would've realized right away the knife wasn't sharp enough) what was he doing? He was mutilating chapman and going through her belongings

[RockySullivan]

If John Richardson was a killer why would he bring suspicion to himself by mentioning that he sat down with a knife and cut leather off his boot? Surely a murderer wouldn't even mention knives but would just state that he had checked the cellar doors that morning and then left. No-one saw him with a knife so why implicate himself?

Because he was worried someone saw him in the yard with a knife. It's the only explanation or why he would change his story from I didn't go down into the yard to...I sat down on the exact spot next to a body with a knife out. If a neighbor said they saw him in the yard with a knife it's the only explanation he could think of. He's in the yard at the murder time with a knife out....he's the ripper

[Rosella]

If John Richardson was a killer why would he bring suspicion to himself by mentioning that he sat down with a knife and cut leather off his boot? Surely a murderer wouldn't even mention knives but would just state that he had checked the cellar doors that morning and then left. No-one saw him with a knife so why implicate himself?

[RockySullivan]

Whitehall inquest:

[Coroner]Do you think previous knowledge was required to get to the vaults? - Yes, I do. I first saw the parcel about half-past two o’clock on Tuesday afternoon. I had been in the vaults on the Monday, but had not noticed any smell. I was there in the dark. On Tuesday the first witness called my attention to the parcel. He struck a light, and I saw in the corner what looked like an old coat with a piece of ham inside. I procured a lamp, and the parcel was afterwards got out and opened.
By the Jury: Tools have been stolen on the works. I do not think it possible that any one could have lowered the parcel from Richmond-mews.

Chapman inquest:

John Richardson, of John-street, Spitalfields, market porter, said: I assist my mother in her business. I went to 29, Hanbury-street, between 4,45 a.m. and 4.50 a.m. on Saturday last. I went to see if the cellar was all secure, as some while ago there was a robbery there of some tools. I have been accustomed to go on market mornings since the time when the cellar was broken in.
[Coroner] Was the front door open? - No, it was closed. I lifted the latch and went through the passage to the yard door.
[Coroner] Did you go into the yard? - No, the yard door was shut. I opened it and sat on the doorstep, and cut a piece of leather off my boot with an old table-knife, about five inches long. I kept the knife upstairs at John-street. I had been feeding a rabbit with a carrot that I had cut up, and I put the knife in my pocket. I do not usually carry it there. After cutting the leather off my boot I tied my boot up, and went out of the house into the market. I did not close the back door. It closed itself. I shut the front door.
[Coroner] How long were you there? - About two minutes at most.
[Coroner] Was it light? - It was getting light, but I could see all over the place.
[Coroner] Did you notice whether there was any object outside? - I could not have failed to notice the deceased had she been lying there then. I saw the body two or three minutes before the doctor came. I was then in the adjoining yard. Thomas Pierman had told me about the murder in the market. When I was on the doorstep I saw that the padlock on the cellar door was in its proper place.
[Coroner] Did you sit on the top step? - No, on the middle step; my feet were on the flags of the yard.
[Coroner] You must have been quite close to where the deceased was found? - Yes, I must have seen her.
[Coroner] You have been there at all hours of the night? - Yes.
[Coroner] Have you ever seen any strangers there? - Yes, plenty, at all hours - both men and women. I have often turned them out. We have had them on our first floor as well, on the landing.
[Coroner] Do you mean to say that they go there for an immoral purpose? - Yes, they do.
At this stage witness was despatched by the coroner to fetch his knife.


Is there a connection between the stolen tools at whitehall & 29 hanbury?

[RockySullivan]

From chapman inquest chandler's testimony about finding Richardson's spring by the body:

"There was also a piece of steel, flat, which has since been identified by Mrs. Richardson as the spring of her son's leggings.
[Coroner] Where was that found? - It was close to where the body had been"

Evidence?

[RockySullivan]

he admitted to carrying a knife in his pocket to the crime scene, he's there at the correct time for the murder to occur, he changes his story a while bunch of times, first he just peaked, then he's out on the steps with a knife. He randomly decides to sit down at the murder sites and cut leather of his shoe, but when he brings the knife to the inquest he says it wasnt sharp enough so he cut it off later with a sharper knife. He specifically admits he put the knife in his pocket before going to the murder site....the knife is for cutting carrots to feed his rabbit? This guy makes Lechmere look like a ******* nun....he's the killer

at the inquest he brings a random rusty old knife and the coroner takes his word that's the knife he had so he's not the killer and ruled out? What the hell got some real geniuses working on this case! Could Liz Long have worked with Richardson at spitalfields market? This guy........he lied way more times the Lechmere....how the hell is this guy not suspect number 1 for all of you?

[Scott Nelson]

Actually he was probably the guy who slept on the stairs of 29 Hanbury Street in the months prior to Chapman's murder. And he wasn't John Pizer.

[RockySullivan]

Hi All,

John Richardson was about as reliable as a ten-bob watch.

Echo, 16th September 1888 -

[ATTACH]13944[/ATTACH]

Four days after the concept of Leather Apron had been laid to rest.

Regards,

Simon

What the bloody hell simon this guy is obviously the ripper! What a looney wonder if there is a connection between the whitehall basement where the tools were kept and the basement at 29 hanbury where he was going to check up! Sounds like he could be torso ripper

[Magpie]

My old man speaks pretty fluent rhyming slang (at least up to the late '70s) but the rhyming slang is only a part of the patois--backslang is far more significant among the cockney and comes close to being a language all it's own. My grandmother was fluent in it, but when she spoke it, it was almost impossible to figure out what she was saying (which of course was the point).

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Barbara

The one that puzzled me a bit was a friend who kept on referring to Taxis as Andies or 'andies...Until I was pointed towards Andy McNabb = Cab...though I suspect in this case the origin may lie more in Mockney rather than Cockney!

Of course these last few posts really ought to be on the other thread!

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

Hi Barbara

East end or cockney rhyming slang I think - grasshopper for copper...1930s I think in origin...though it may just be earlier.

Dave

In checking out the Cockney Rhyming slang I can only say that even if I were born within the sound of Bow Bells I think I would fail this course. This is hard!

Mark me down as a West ender...

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.

I'm not familiar with your term "Grass"; is it an East End slang term for ending up "six foot under," "pushing up daisies"?

Thanks,
Archaic

Hi Archaic ,

It is like other posters have explained Cockney rhyming slang .. and the thing is , it is always getting tweaked and modified , however there are some set in stone rhymes that are there for good .

Grass - Grassy ditch = Snitch
Boat - Boat race = face
Pins - Pins and pegs =Legs
Plates - Plates of meat = feet
Daisys -Daisy Roots = Boots
Mincers - Mince pies = Eyes
Barnet - Barnet Fair = Hair
Frog - Frog and Toad = Road
Whistle -Whistle and flute = suit
Apples -Apple and pears =Stairs
Taters - Taters mould = Cold ( Potato mould )
Tom - Tom foolery = Jewelry
Current - Current bun = sun
Ruby - Ruby murry = Curry ( a good ol East End dish )
Jeckel - Jeckel and Hyde = Snide ( fake , not real )

These are just a few of the older ones .. i'm sure you get the idea .. Mainly only the first word is used .
now i'm off for a cup of rosie Lee ( cup of tea ) and listen to a bit of Johnny Pie and Mash ( cash )

Hope that helped a few of you out .

Cheers

Moonbegger .

[Archaic]

Ripper-Related Vocabulary & Slang

Hi guys.

Last year we did a really entertaining thread called 'Ripper-Related Vocabulary', which ended up covering all kinds of unusual Victorian slang terms, including Cockney Rhyming Slang.

Ripper-Related Vocabulary Thread: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5465

Feel free to post your contributions to it; a number of people have asked me to re-start the thread, and I've been meaning to... It was a lot of fun.

Thanks & best regards,
Archaic

[Cogidubnus]

Rhyming slang

Hi Barbara

There are a number of websites which may help but this is quite a good one:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/cockney-rhyming-slang.html

You do need to remember though that the slang is habitually shortened

viz look = butcher's 'ook = butchers....as in "take a butchers at that"

and also that the rhymes are sometimes a little convoluted by being put through the process more than once!

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

Hi Barbara

East end or cockney rhyming slang I think - grasshopper for copper...1930s I think in origin...though it may just be earlier.

Dave

Not ever heard of that. This is all fascinating.