PC William Smith

[RedBundy13]

I'm not sure he gets enough credit as a reliable witness as he deserves. He was the one witness who was able to decribe Liz Stride and what she was wearing right down to the flower pinned to her jacket. Also he gave a great description of the man she was seen with (who I believe was Jack the Ripper). After witnessing those two he continued on with his beat and when he returned to Berner St. about a half an hour later around 1am he saw a crowd of people gathered around Dutfield'sYard. Upon investigating he had found that 2 constables were already there and they were looking at the body of Elizabeth Stride. After looking at her he immediately left for an ambulance and the police station.
What leads me to take him as the #1 witness is that he was the only one to descibe seeing the flower pinned to her chest. Plus his description of the man she was with closely matches the description of Joseph Lawende and crew with the one difference, that being that PC Smith was completely sober at the time. While Lawende and co. had just left the bar. I would take a suspect description from a sober police officer over that of a intoxicated citizen any day. Thats not saying that Lawende was a bad witness or anything I'm just saying that I think PC Smith should get as much if not more credit for being a reliable witness as Joseph Lawende. Anyone agree? Or am I alone on this one?

[lynn cates]

PC Smith

Hello Red. I agree that PC Smith was the most reliable witness that night. However, please be aware that Gardner and Betts also claimed to have seen a flower on Liz.

Why do you think that the man with Liz was "JTR"? Tom Wescott has noted that Smith's description of the man chatting up Liz coincides exactly with the descriptions of some of the IWMEC club members. Moreover, Tom has measured his copies of the "Arbeter Fraint" and their dimensions approximate those of the man's bundle.

Note that this conversation took place between 12.30 and 12.35. If you take the standard time of Liz's demise and the Schwartz story seriously, you've got a good bit of gap.

Of course, the standard time for Liz's demise and the Schwartz story entail their own set of anomalies.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

So Lewande was intoxicated?

Wheres that 'fact' printed?

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Red (say hi to Ted and Al for me!), I don't think anyone dismisses Smith, and certainly no one has thought him a liar. But the reason more prominence isn't given to the man he saw is that it occurred quite some time before the murder and both Schwartz and James Brown saw Stride with clearly different men following Smith. So while we all would agree that Smith was a good witness, his evidence, unfortunately, is useless other than placing Stride very near the scene of her murder a good 20 or 30 minutes prior to it occurring, and taken along with other evidence, proves that she was talking with multiple men that evening.

Regarding the flower, she may not have been wearing it the entire evening, due to the intermittent rain. And in the case of some witnesses, such as James Brown, who described a man standing in front Stride, partially blocking her body from view, it might not have been possible for them to see the flower.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I'm not sure he gets enough credit as a reliable witness as he deserves.

Not from modern theorists, but his statement was published in the Police Gazette (19th Oct.) alongside those given by Lawende & Schwartz.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/police_gazette/police881019.html?printer=true

What leads me to take him as the #1 witness is that he was the only one to descibe seeing the flower pinned to her chest.

Yes, Gardner, Packer & Smith all make reference to the flower on her breast.
There's no reasonable doubt that they all saw the same woman, the question is, did they all see the same man?
PC Smith's sighting coincidently places the couple on the same side of the road, about the same time & location as Packer had seen his couple assuming he closed his shutters about 12:30, not 11:30.

I would take a suspect description from a sober police officer over that of a intoxicated citizen any day.

I don't think they were in competition. Because the Mitre Sq. murder was a separate incident to the Berner St. murder, the witnesses are treated separate unless there is proven connection.
Smith's evidence appears to have been overshadowed by that of Schwartz.

I don't get that warm feeling that the men seen by Schwartz & Smith were the same man, I think they were different.
However, the man with "weak-eyes" seen by Best & Gardner may well be the same as the one seen by Smith, its a shame neither Best nor Gardner saw him carrying a parcel.

Tom has measured his copies of the "Arbeter Fraint" and their dimensions approximate those of the man's bundle.

What was he carrying, back-issues, delivering flyers?, it was a parcel Lynn, only wrapped in newspaper, like fish & chips, you know?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Arthur Treacher

Hello Jon. No, as a matter of fact, I DON'T know. Where would one procure such comestibles at that hour?

Back issues? Try September 28.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, Gardner, Packer & Smith all make reference to the flower on her breast.
There's no reasonable doubt that they all saw the same woman

Tsk, tsk.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Packer

Hello Tom. I wasn't going to say anything, but . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

....Did I say something?

:-)

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't know about fish and chips, but one could certainly still get food at 11:35. James Brown was just grabbing his dinner an hour later. But the dimensions described (which I forget at the moment, something like 16" by 7") would I think rule out a fish and chips dinner.

I suggested that the man PC Smith saw was a member of the club handing out copies of Arbeter Fraint, a bundle of which would NOT be folded and would be loosely bound with string, I'm sure, to keep them from flying everywhere. A stack such as this would naturally resemble a package, even at a closer look than what Smith took. My research showed that members would stand out on the street and hand out free copies of the newspaper in hopes of getting donations, subscriptions, or new attendees. After all, that's what was going on the night of the murder, it was a series of talks, dancing, etc, a fund raiser of sorts. Most of the members would have been decently dressed and young as Smith described.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. No, as a matter of fact, I DON'T know.

An old Brit tradition, for the working class...

[lynn cates]

supper

Hello Tom. Indeed. The chandler's shops would be open for late diners. Not sure if they any warm offerings like fish and chips.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

What exactly DID chandler's shops sell for these dinners? Fish and chips sounds delicious right now, but it's the girlfriends birthday so I'm about to spend $60 on Japanese food I probably wouldn't eat for free. LOL.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hello Tom. Indeed. The chandler's shops would be open for late diners. Not sure if they any warm offerings like fish and chips.

Cheers.
LC

Oh yes you are, you've just forgotten. :-)

What was Mary Kelly's 'last supper'?
James Brown had just visited a chandler's shop for his supper.
Coles was eating mutton & bread at 1:30 am.


If Mary Kelly had not gone out after servicing Blotchy at midnight anything she had eaten beforehand would have been digested by the time of her death (3:30 am?).
The undigested "fish & potato's" demonstrates she went out again, and that such food was available through the night.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

cooking

Hello Tom. Thought it was all cold items.

Fish and chips would be excellent. Of course, I prefer the fish cooked, heh-heh.

Cheers.
LC