George William Topping Hutchinson: Witness

[lynn cates]

off to the racist

Hello Malcolm. What if Toppy/Hutch were not anti-Semitic/racist? What if he were describing just an acquaintance of MJK?

Incidentally, what race was the man in the photo I posted? Know his name?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Hello Malcolm. What if Toppy/Hutch were not anti-Semitic/racist? What if he were describing just an acquaintance of MJK?

Well, if he wasn't anti-semitic, then he was jealous of the man's wealth ( ?)
sleeping with Mary (?) -because he certainly did portray the man in very unflattering and unsympathetic terms.

He also chose to take some inflammatory, caricatorial elements, in describing the man's 'jewishness' -
ostentatious wearing of gold in a very poor area... saturnine, glowering dark features (shades of Shakespeare's Shylock). In short if Hutchinson's description was from life, and/or just embroidered, then it was the Jewish
part that he willingly chose to amplify negatively.

So even if there is no proof at all that Hutchinson was describing a real person, nor what his motives were as a witness -there is still a strong indication that he was anti-semite, because of the way that he described A Man.

Incidentally, what race was the man in the photo I posted? Know his name?

I'm replying (sorry -I'm not Malcolm). I don't need to have looked for your photo, to suppose that the portrait that you posted was an Irishman. I also take it 'as read' that he has dark hair, a moustache and late 19th Century clothing? Obviously, they bear a superficial likeness ?

Evidently if you had a 'foreign looking' Jew and an Iirishman before you, you would be able to tell the difference...sure as eggs is eggs? Even more so if one was handily wearing an' irish harp' pin, and the other a jewish 'hamsa horseshoe' !

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

I didn't see a photo. There was a drawing however, and I have no idea who it is, but it looks like a younger Lusk to me.

Sometimes I think this whole Jewish idea has more to do with a man not looking British (whatever that means) than actually looking Jewish. I believe the idea of an Englishman committing such atrocities was somewhat removed from the English brain and without even being aware of it, a guilty person must be foreign or Jewish, and this isn't necessarily cognizant anti-Semitism as much as it's disbelief in a suspect's Englishness. We see the Irishness and the Americanisms in the letters, and the wideawake, American style hat. These things help to turn the finger of blame away from the British and are not conscious efforts for the most part.

Mike

Mike

[lynn cates]

Irish

Hello Ruby. He was indeed Irish. But I'm not sure I could distinguish as easily as you suppose.

And, yes, this chap actually existed and dressed just as Toppy described him.

He was a deep penetration agent for Sir Edward until Sir Edward was sacked. Later, he carried on for Lord Salisbury and his band of merry men.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Millen

Hello Michael. Yes, that is a drawing. I had forgotten that I had used that instead of the photo.

The lad in question is Francis Millen, the agent provocateur from the Jubilee Dynamite Plot of Lord Salisbury.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

yes and no, be careful here, because the timing is way too close to when she was murdered..... this suspect is not smartly dressed or anything like LA DE DA, he's more like a Joe Average sailor boy...

Which is prettymuch what Swanson noted in his 19th Oct. report.
Swanson encapsulates the observation I made and couples that with your opinion as above.

Quote:
"...I understand from City Police that Mr Lawende, one of the men [who?] identified the clothes only of the murdered woman Eddowes, which is a serious drawback to the value of the description of the man. Ten minutes afterwards the body is found horribly mutilated & it is therefore reasonable to believe that the man he saw was the murderer, but for purposes of comparison, this description is much nearer to that given by Schwartz than to that given by the P.C."

So Swanson recognised the same dilemma we raised between us.

...the only guys that night that were seen close in timing to the murders, were BS, PIPEMAN, SCHWARTZ, DIEMSCHULTZ, SAILOR BOY, and a few other Jewish passers by etc........ this doesn't mean that a posh bloke from earlier on didn't quickly jump in, but it's not looking good, especially with regards to Stride!

Compare your Lawende-man, BS and the "Clerk" William Marshall saw with Stride earlier at 11:45pm.
The "Clerk" wore a "round cap with a peak" and a Cutaway-style coat, these coats had padded shoulders.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. What if Toppy/Hutch were not anti-Semitic/racist? What if he were describing just an acquaintance of MJK?

Incidentally, what race was the man in the photo I posted? Know his name?

Cheers.
LC

he could have been and this is the whole problem with JTR, but the trouble is his statement is tarnished so badly, that it casts grave doubts over all of it.

to see that much colour and detail late at night and in near pitch blackness, LA DE DA would have had to pass under quite a few very bright street lamps, he didn't, it is therefore highly unlikely you can detect the colours red and gold..... you cant detect any colours in the dark, or shapes etc.

you need to test this type of thing for yourself, because somebody passing you in near pitch blackness, is just an out of focus dark grey mass, you would not notice anything in his hand, we seem to ignore just how dark it would've been back then.... this is 2am on a cold wet and overcast night, so no candles on in the rooms/ no pub lights, only very dirty street lamps well spaced out.

it would be similar to walking down a street today in a power cut, with a few dirty 40 watt bulbs on...... spaced every 70 ft or so

without cheating and looking again, this was two days ago, i would say from memory:-

1..... he had a wide moustache, looked about 30, dark curly hair, cant remember the hat
2....... looked medium built, roundish face, looked British or European

now have i done better than Schwartz ?

[Malcolm X]

Which is prettymuch what Swanson noted in his 19th Oct. report.
Swanson encapsulates the observation I made and couples that with your opinion as above.

Quote:
"...I understand from City Police that Mr Lawende, one of the men [who?] identified the clothes only of the murdered woman Eddowes, which is a serious drawback to the value of the description of the man. Ten minutes afterwards the body is found horribly mutilated & it is therefore reasonable to believe that the man he saw was the murderer, but for purposes of comparison, this description is much nearer to that given by Schwartz than to that given by the P.C."

So Swanson recognised the same dilemma we raised between us.




Compare your Lawende-man, BS and the "Clerk" William Marshall saw with Stride earlier at 11:45pm.
The "Clerk" wore a "round cap with a peak" and a Cutaway-style coat, these coats had padded shoulders.

Regards, Jon S.

it is true that BS could also be smartly dressed, as could Sailor boy, because JTR only needs to change his hat, scalf etc to look scruffy at night...... these suspects were seen in near pitch blackness and from a semi-back view only.

we dont know what he was wearing when his coat swung open, suffice to say that this isn't LA DE DA, that's stretching it too far, but it could easily be an office clerk, with a sailors hat on and an old scalf etc...... the rest is hidden from view under a veil of darkness. BS also looks scruffy from the way he behaved, a drunken yob

this changes little, because anyone can own clothing like this, even a Bricky, it's LA DE DA that's over the top, i very much doubt that JTR wore the same clothing all the time, nobody can be that stupid, even back then.

incidentally wasn't Toppy only 21 or 22 in 1888...... this is a real problem, because unlike George Chapman, Toppy will definitely look young.

finally if this BS was JTR, chalk in pocket, he was probably targetting Dutfields for quite some time, thus seen a few times earlier on, but being seen would not have bothered JTR that much.

i'm wondering if BS wasn't one of those earlier ``smarter`` suspects, just seen from the back only and appearing scruffy due to his behaviour, i think a big clue is that it was so very dark at night back then, compared to today

[lynn cates]

colour

Hello Malcolm. Well, if you've told the truth, I think you have done better than Schwartz. (heh-heh)

Not sure about that lighting. If I recall properly, there was a recent article in either "Ripperologist" or the "Casebook Examiner" where colour under various lighting conditions was considered.

Seems that this article rather refuted some of the thinking about light conditions and their effect on the colour red.

Why do I recall Mr. Stewart Evans as authoring the piece? Oh, well--old chaps and their flawed memories.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Well, if you've told the truth, I think you have done better than Schwartz. (heh-heh)

Not sure about that lighting. If I recall properly, there was a recent article in either "Ripperologist" or the "Casebook Examiner" where colour under various lighting conditions was considered.

Seems that this article rather refuted some of the thinking about light conditions and their effect on the colour red.

Why do I recall Mr. Stewart Evans as authoring the piece? Oh, well--old chaps and their flawed memories.

Cheers.
LC

oh yea i'm telling the truth

try it tonight, just go outside and see if you can detect colours, i think you'll only notice anything under a powerful street lamp, but you'll definitely not detect anything in your back garden..

a Victorian street lamp might not be bright enough, especially in Dorset st, but i could be wrong i suppose

[lynn cates]

tenebrism

Hello Malcolm. Very well, let's say that the exact intensity of the light is undetermined and hence casts a shadow on Toppy's story. (Couldn't resist!)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Malcolm.
I'm glad you brought this up...

BS also looks scruffy from the way he behaved, a drunken yob

I've said as much myself, in fact if BS was drunk it raises suspicion on him scribbling that graffito, in the dark, and written so small, and also "in a neat schoolboy hand".

So who said he was drunk?

Schwartz!

Why did Schwartz come to that conclusion?

Here we have to check his two statements. In the police statement there is no mention of BS being drunk, or acting as if drunk.

However, what Schwartz say's in the Star version, is:
".....a man walking as if partially intoxicated." The reporter goes on to describe him as "...The half-tipsy man..."

Schwartz does say the man stopped to talk with Stride, but there's no indication given that Schwartz deduced him to be drunk based on his speech.
It may only have been the man's 'stagger' as he walked, if the man was not drunk, the 'stagger' may have been a physical impediment.

Mrs Kennedy described her 'suspicious man' as having:
"....an extremely awkward gait, which could at once be recognised."

Thomas Ede described his 'suspicious man' :
"...The man walked as though he had stiff knee joints."

BS-man may not have been drunk at all, and his physical description is not at odds with those given by Lewis, Kennedy, Paumier, Smith, Marshall, Best & also possibly Birch. We may know this character from a host of witnesses, we just could not see the wood for the trees.

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I have remarked on this several times, the ''half tipsy'' man, and the partially intoxicated, may not have been alcohol induced, but actually a physical attribute.
I would suggest Jack the Ripper had immense difficulty in walking, which if so , would eliminate Hutchinson's man , who walked sharply.
If this new angle could be accepted, we would have a great starting point for suspect elimination.
Regards Richard.
Thanks Jon S for re-introducing this.

[Malcolm X]

yea this is quite good and i've missed this too, now let me look at the Stride murder again.

G.Chapman also had a type of Gait, this was mentioned years ago in RIPPER NOTES, he had a very awkward walking style.....this arguement was used against me, with reference to LA DE DA, one of Chapman's wives laughed that he could hardly walk, but yet again no proof !

it looks like BS had Rickets.

[Malcolm X]

11:45 PM: William Marshall, a laborer, sees her on Berner Street. He is standing in the doorway of 64 Berner Street on the west side of the street between Fairclough and Boyd Streets. He notices her talking to a man in a short black cutaway coat and sailor's hat outside number 63. They are kissing and carrying on. He hears the man say "You would say anything but your prayers."

SAILORS HAT
.12:35 AM: Police Constable William Smith sees Stride with a young man on Berner Street opposite the International Working Men's Educational Club. The man is described as 28 years old, dark coat and hard deerstalker hat. He is carrying a parcel approximately 6 inches high and 18 inches in length. the package is wrapped in newspaper.

Schwartz describes the man as about 30 years old, 5' 5" tall with a fresh complexion, dark hair and small brown mustache. He is dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim.

At the same time, James Brown says he sees Stride with a man as he was going home with his supper down Fairclough Street. She was leaning against the wall talking to a stoutish man about 5' 7" tall in a long black coat that reached to his heels. He has his arm against the wall. Stride is saying "No, not tonight, some other night."

28 TO 30..... 5FT 5'' TO 5FT 8'', long black coat, short black coat.... man going home with his supper, this could be the other guy as well, but with a parcel in his hand ``fish and chips`` maybe.

no gait was mentioned here because the blokes wern't seen walking, and the length of the coat/ hat type isn't always mentioned either.

addded to this due to it being so dark, we also have a 50% error in description, i'm therefore quite happy that one of these other guys could quite easily be BS.

the guy with the sailors hat is quite interesting, because he actually insults LIZ STRIDE, and this can be interpreted as quite a bad insult too!!!!

but this might only be a red herring, even so it has to be said that this guy looks like the Eddowes suspect.... give or take 50%.... but to be honest so little is said about his description/ any of the others too, that we are still screwed

but BS is the guy to focus on, especially if he has Rickets and is smarter dressed than we think.

so basically:-

1..... it looks like the Eddowes suspect is hanging around here too.... this has to be said, even if i have sod all to back this up

2..... JTR could be either BS or Sailor Boy and is almost definitely lurking around Dutfields from earlier on, this i can guarantee you, JTR is in this area from about 12.20 onwards, i thought so, i have no proof of this but i sense it quite strongly.

my guess is :- he's lurking around Dutfields Chalk in pocket, STRIDE has already said ``not tonight love, kisses only``..... this is no good for him, so he's still lurking around waiting for another potential victim, that he can lure away somewhere quiet......

but he cant now, because that damned woman is now outside Dutfields and she's still there 10 mins later, there's no point him killing anyone else; because he can not leave the dress/ graffiti there whilst Stride is still there and he can not wait long for her to leave because the body will be discovered/ place crawling with police, he's now starting to loose his temper, that Stride woman is messing up his plans !!!!!

JTR now knows that she's waiting for someone from inside that club and this could take another half hour, i think he thinks, ``that's enough now``
and simply rushes in and kills her, settling for a quick kill only, he knows he cant lure her away, because he's already tried, now this can be either BS or that Sailor boy.....

maybe maybe not!