George William Topping Hutchinson: Witness

[lynn cates]

sorry

Hello Michael. Oops! Mea culpa.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

No worries. I've done my share of culpas.


Mike

[Malcolm X]

Toppy's description is nothing like the description of this other smart looking guy, this one seems accurate, but might not be related to JTR

Toppy's is more of a Stereotypical description based on a suspicious looking Jewish diamond dealer......or a pimp etc.

his description of events is farcical and feels totally wrong, i'm saying that he did not see Kelly/ LA DE DA that night, at all......because if he did see something, why not tell the truth !!!!..... but no he's lieing, now why?

Lechmere points to Toppy maybe having family problems, moving around alot, unsettled and unable to find permanent work, this could be somebody that is prepared to lie like crazy simply to get a cash reward from the police..... if you carry on and did up much more dirt on this Toppy, then the pendulum swings towards him as a JTR suspect.

quite a few serial killers dont have a life that's as bad as his, so it can be argued that he is already a suspect and maybe he's resentful of the Jews that he sees as getting all the best jobs etc etc..... maybe!

because it's very suspicious that he didn't come forward till 2 days later etc etc...... but made damned sure that he went to the inquest first....crafty sod!

now i'm not sure about the signatures...... and we must not discuss this here.

i'm in one of my reflective moods today, so here goes

1...... forget Toppy being there, he lied for the cash reward
2...... nobody called GH killed her
3...... Toppy could indeed be JTR
4...... no more murders whilst he's still around... big negative
5......Kelly stopped singing soon after 1am...... bloody hell !

[Malcolm X]

Jon,

.

I would agree that this could be the very same man and that the hatless woman was Kelly. It seems that being hatless is remarked upon in the case as being somewhat noteworthy. The night of Kelly's death the man didn't have an overcoat on, though that doesn't mean he didn't have one nearby, or had laced it about one of the women's shoulders he was talking with as perhaps you or I would have done.

.
Mike

dont forget that this hatless woman could be anyone, i think it all depends on how drunk Kelly still was, because if she was starting to feel better then maybe she went out again, BLOTCHY FACE seems like an earlier client that maybe left close to 1am

i'm suspicious of Kelly stopping singing, with regards to JTR lurking around outside.... she stopped singing too early for my liking.

this is so so complicated !

[The Good Michael]

Malcolm,

The problem with all the testimony is that it comes from a fairly standard set of questioning (my belief) that doesn't allow for much creativity. The question of a woman being hatless seems to have some importance in general, if not specifically about this case. I refer to the legal concept wherein lawyers never ask questions of witnesses that they don;t already know the answers to, and I presume this idea applies to magistrates and coroners at inquests as depostions and questioning have already been done. This may be...,No, this IS why we have no surviving examples of creative questioning that could help us in the 21st century. This is all my opinion, of course, and perhaps a 19th century inquest expert could bear this out.

Mike

[Wickerman]

Jon,

I assume you are referring to this from the Daily News:

Hi Mike.
Actually two days before the Daily News we have an interesting report from the Evening News on Saturday 10th Nov.
I find the choice of wording of interest because the reporter does not credit Mrs Kennedy with naming Kelly as the hatless woman. The reporter makes the connection as if drawn from an alternate source which has not come down to us.

Quote:
"...Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday..."

The Evening News reporter appears to know that the elsewhere described hatless woman was actually Mary Kelly. We cannot be certain over this interpretation but nowhere in any other press reports does Mrs Kennedy call the hatless woman by name.

Also, the alternate witness to events in Dorset St. that night, Sarah Lewis, actually stated to police that she did not know the deceased (Kelly). Therefore if the police witness Lewis was the same as the press witness named Kennedy, consistency lies in the fact that neither of them identified the hatless woman as Kelly.
The Evening News reporter must have determined this from another source.

I think it quite reasonable to take the statements of both Lewis & Kennedy in the same context, whether they were the same person or not. What they have to say about activities that night have an impact on how we should interpret Hutchinson's statement.

As for the embellishment, there are several possible reasons including wishful thinking as one of the simplest. Horrific murder seems to be the least possible reason to create a story and then come forward to be interrogated for. Making money ultimately must be what GWTH had in mind overall.

Tentatively I think we might also include the possibility that Hutchinson just might have overdone his suspects 'Jewish appearance', to the extent that the police detected an anti-Semitic attitude. Anti-semiticism was very prevalent in the East End, and Hutchinson was an out-of-work labourer. Many of those who cannot find work today also blame the incoming foreigners for their loss.

It's only a suggestion, and could be completely wide of the mark. Suffice to say I think it necessary to add this to the list of possibilities as to why the police were eventually "induced" to follow a different line of inquiry.

Overall, I take Hutchinson's statement as essentially true, or at least based on an actual occurance, and supported to a degree by the witnesses named above.

Regard, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

i need and it has to me this time :-

to get those signatures checked and this time by about 6 pros, i'll do it via email

because i'm sensing that Toppy was indeed GH, but that he's totally lieing and was never even there....... his son is a liar too, especially with regards to this Randolf Churchill rubbish.

i'm on the fence too much over this, so i have to get those signatures looked at, this Kelly murder is terribly confusing

[The Good Michael]

Jon,

Thanks for posting that. I overlooked that article, but it supports the somewhat obvious conclusion I made long ago that these were both Kelly, at least according to the reporter's conclusion. It makes me proud of my social studies and historical inquiry (enquiry for those who are... unamerican) training! Alas, I am teaching geography to a pack of idiots in Tajikistan who cannot be expelled because many are related to the president. At least my detective work is still ...er... working?


Mike

[Malcolm X]

this guy Toppy/ whoever, has actually described a scenario similar to Mrs Kennedy's, he has also based his suspect description on an exaggerated version of the smart man seen in this area, hastling women over the past few weeks....he probably dreamt this up when he went to the inquest

you really do have to ask yourself this:- would Kelly have gone back to her room with a man that looks highly suspicious and just like the Bogeman seen hanging around this area recently, especially with what he is carrying in his hand, finally :- would the killer himself look as suspicious/rediculous as this...... to both of these i say no.

if this is so, then i would say that Kelly was maybe the thickest person on the face of the Earth, because it is far more likely that she said, ``look at the state of you, you give me the creeps and what is that in your hand, go on clear off``

if you saw this guy you'd think, ``what the hell is someone like this doing hanging around such a disgusting area, hastling women, why isn't he up the West End, this guy isn't for real, look at the clothing he's wearing, there's something totally creepy about him`` you would definitely think this and i expect the killer would realise this too, expect JTR to look much more like BROAD SHOULDERS.

this Toppy statement is so flawed and there's so much more too, it is clearly fabricated. finally, if he was there and wanted JTR caught, why didn't he tell the truth.

[Malcolm X]

Jon,

Thanks for posting that. I overlooked that article, but it supports the somewhat obvious conclusion I made long ago that these were both Kelly, at least according to the reporter's conclusion. It makes me proud of my social studies and historical inquiry (enquiry for those who are... unamerican) training! Alas, I am teaching geography to a pack of idiots in Tajikistan who cannot be expelled because many are related to the president. At least my detective work is still ...er... working?


Mike

you have no proof whatsoever that this is MJK, all of this is way too dodgy , i would not trust those eyewitnesses at all..... but even if you're right it still means nothing, because these are people just talking in the street earlier on, this is not 10 mins and counting like with Eddowes.

[Malcolm X]

if Kennedy saw this suspect and kelly at say 3am, then this is after Toppy said that he walked off ...... Yipes what a mess, you do realise this dont you; because it's only just occured to me, i must have forgotten this over the years !

because this LA DE DA Jew is supposed to be still inside Kelly's, i'd therefore say that this Kennedy woman is either talking rubbish or it's not Kelly and LA DE DA that she saw, finally we also have a report that Kelly was seen in the morning too !!!!!

you have eyewhitnesses here that are shot to pieces, and all pulling in different directions, and another who knows exactly what he's saying.... be it either he's lieing or he's JTR.

dont forget that Toppy/GH is bang on accurate with his lie, it's bullshit yes, but there's nothing major that trips him up, now this is very risky indeed, especially if he wasn't there, dont forget that he was the bloke seen outside too....... maybe!

yes, it's one hell of a mystery isn't it......Toppy is either lieing about being there, years later and thus the other GH is JTR, or he himself is JTR.

CONCLUSION somebody called GH is probably JTR and this person is maybe Broad Shoulders.

i would not dare bank against Toppy being JTR either, something tells me that it's way too risky coming forward with a total lie and i think that Toppy seems confident enough over the next few days, to tell me that he was there.

right now it doesn't matter either way, because at the moment i haven't sent off those signatures, but if Toppy was indeed there that night then i'm 100% convinced that he's JTR

no more murders later on from him ?..... i couldn't care less, because if he was there then he's JTR

[Wickerman]

this guy Toppy/ whoever, has actually described a scenario similar to Mrs Kennedy's, he has also based his suspect description on an exaggerated version of the smart man seen in this area, hastling women over the past few weeks....

This 'smart man' was also seen with Stride just prior to her murder, or someone dressed very similar, he appears to be the elusive 'Clerk'.

.....he probably dreamt this up when he went to the inquest

You're not too familiar with this case, are you Malcolm?

...you really do have to ask yourself this:- would Kelly have gone back to her room with a man that looks highly suspicious

Suspisious, of what?
This 'well-dressed' man represents a meal ticket to Kelly, ever heard the saying, "beggars can't be choosers"?

...and just like the Bogeman seen hanging around this area recently, especially with what he is carrying in his hand, finally :- would the killer himself look as suspicious/rediculous as this...... to both of these i say no.

He didn't dress any different than George Chapman, or Druitt, or Issenschmidt. There's nothing suspicious nor rediculous about his appearance, perhaps embellished a little, thats all.

`what the hell is someone like this doing hanging around such a disgusting area, hastling women, why isn't he up the West End, this guy isn't for real, look at the clothing he's wearing, there's something totally creepy about him`` you would definitely think this and i expect the killer would realise this too, expect JTR to look much more like BROAD SHOULDERS.

With all due respect Malcolm, I think that opinion is based on ignorance.

you have no proof whatsoever that this is MJK, all of this is way too dodgy , i would not trust those eyewitnesses at all.....

What 'proof' is there of anything? If 'proof' existed a century after the murders, then it existed at the time and the killer would have been caught!
Why trust Schwartz, he wasn't at the Inquest either, besides, who ever claimed BS carried a weapon?

...but even if you're right it still means nothing, because these are people just talking in the street earlier on, this is not 10 mins and counting like with Eddowes.

Oh, I see, ...you need to see the killer chasing her with a knife before you accept the suspect, ...ok, got it!

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

if Kennedy saw this suspect and kelly at say 3am, then this is after Toppy said that he walked off ......

We are well aware of this Malcolm. We can also safely assume that Mrs Kennedy did not wear a watch. We know she made no reference to hearing a clock strike nor seeing the Spitalfields church clock, whereas Hutchinson did make reference to the clock strike "3 times'.

In each murder case the stated times are not to be trusted unless referenced by something, like a clock or church bells. You should know this if you have any mileage on these various Ripper cases.
So the question comes to my mind, why you would raise an issue that any appreciable experience on these cases should tell you is well recognised by everybody.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

NO this suspect does not appear the same as Pipeman.... be careful of suspect descriptions at night, especially from this bunch, they will be at least 50 % innacurate

no, a man as well dressed as GH LA DE DA is highly suspicious especially carrying a parcel, a man dressed like this is totally out of place in Whitechapel. he's also wearing far more rediculous clothing than Chapman or Druitt, because although it's expensive he's also dressed with no class, he looks like a pimp...... of our top suspects he's dressed more like Tumblety.

no, Broadshoulders actually manhandled Stride, who died soon after, this is far more suspicious than the Kennedy suspect.

Eddowes died soon after talking to the Lawende suspect, this is also far more suspicious than Kennedy seeing Kelly outside, who might have died closer to 4am, except for one thing, that at this time of 3am Kelly is still supposed to be inside with LA DE DA

[Malcolm X]

We are well aware of this Malcolm. We can also safely assume that Mrs Kennedy did not wear a watch. We know she made no reference to hearing a clock strike nor seeing the Spitalfields church clock, whereas Hutchinson did make reference to the clock strike "3 times'.

In each murder case the stated times are not to be trusted unless referenced by something, like a clock or church bells. You should know this if you have any mileage on these various Ripper cases.
So the question comes to my mind, why you would raise an issue that any appreciable experience on these cases should tell you is well recognised by everybody.

Regards, Jon S.

just in case you didn't realise this, and after 10 years i think i'm well aware by now that these times may be shot to pieces, but they wont be out by far in respect to Stride/ Eddowes

but Kennedy definitely yes, and with her maybe not even the right evening !!!!!

people like LA DE DA definitely existed, but in Dorset st it would look very odd indeed and it's definitely not the clothing that JTR would wear, many posters here would agree with me.. JTR would in my opinion look more like JOE AVERAGE.