Lawende's trade

[Adam Went]

Hi Sister Hyde,

More interesting thoughts.

In all honesty, though, I think the spotlight needs to be shone more on Harry Harris and in particular Joseph Hyam Levy, rather than Lawende - it's their testimony which is more eyebrow-raising. I've never been able to fully comprehend how Lawende could have seen so much, and Levy even make a reference to the couple along the lines of "I don't like being out with those sorts hanging about", and yet Harris claimed he saw nothing and Levy refused to say much more....

Strange one. Maybe they just didn't like or trust the police, hardly a new phenomenon amongst East End locals of the day....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Unlike Schwartz, Lawende did not come forward to volunteer information.

He did, in a fashion.

When his door was knocked he had a choice: he chose to tell the police that which he knew.

Pure hunch, but I would go with Lawende not knowing the man at all. I'd go with him feeling he'd done his bit and then wanting no more to do with it e.g. line ups etc. Possibly out of personal safety, business etc.

The curious thing for me was that Swanson settled on 5'7/5'8 as given by two men. Was this Harris and Lawende? No record of Harris giving a height. Or was this two other men coming out of the club? Probably not.

[Sister Hyde]

Hi Sister Hyde,

More interesting thoughts.

In all honesty, though, I think the spotlight needs to be shone more on Harry Harris and in particular Joseph Hyam Levy, rather than Lawende - it's their testimony which is more eyebrow-raising. I've never been able to fully comprehend how Lawende could have seen so much, and Levy even make a reference to the couple along the lines of "I don't like being out with those sorts hanging about", and yet Harris claimed he saw nothing and Levy refused to say much more....

Strange one. Maybe they just didn't like or trust the police, hardly a new phenomenon amongst East End locals of the day....

Cheers,
Adam.

Good morning

They all behaved very oddly to me. The three of them giving a different version.
Now about them not liking or trusting the police is very likely too, the Ripper scare having cause a wave of suspicion on the jewish community and having aroused anti-semitism wouldn't help either. But I also think in the sort of general "terror", everyone still tries at least a bit if they're asked, and that keeping a reluctant behaviour wouldn't help for their own cause either.

Cam

[Adam Went]

Would be interesting to know what, if anything was said amongst Lawende, Harris and Levy in the wake of their making their various statements (or lack of in the case of the latter 2) and whether there was any fall out down the track on that particular front. Guess there's no way of knowing but it's an interesting angle.

After all, there was just the one Seaside Home witness....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Sister Hyde]

Would be interesting to know what, if anything was said amongst Lawende, Harris and Levy in the wake of their making their various statements (or lack of in the case of the latter 2) and whether there was any fall out down the track on that particular front. Guess there's no way of knowing but it's an interesting angle.

After all, there was just the one Seaside Home witness....

Cheers,
Adam.

no, there is no way of knowing, it's one of the numerous frustrating part of it. Something was said amongst them that's for sure though. and yes, there is only mention of one witness at the Seaside Home identification... so who the hell is the second witness?

and good morning people by the way!

Cam

[Fleetwood Mac]

Would be interesting to know what, if anything was said amongst Lawende, Harris and Levy in the wake of their making their various statements (or lack of in the case of the latter 2) and whether there was any fall out down the track on that particular front. Guess there's no way of knowing but it's an interesting angle.

After all, there was just the one Seaside Home witness....

Cheers,
Adam.

There's a report (admittedly newspaper) of two men observing JTR, with Eddowes, from the Orange Market (half 1ish).

Could these be Swanson's two men? Probably not as he mentions them coming out of the club. Still, it's intriguing why he said two men coming out of the club, when there were three, and the two of the three men who gave descriptions didn't agree on height!

[Adam Went]

Fleetwood & SH:

Yes, you're right, and not only did two of the men not agree on height but Levy and Lawende had a slight disagreement on the exact time they left the club as well. Not a major discrepancy but worth pointing out.

One wonders if the man they saw wasn't in fact known personally to Harris and/or Levy, but not to Lawende, which would explain some of the strange behaviours afterwards.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood & SH:

Yes, you're right, and not only did two of the men not agree on height but Levy and Lawende had a slight disagreement on the exact time they left the club as well. Not a major discrepancy but worth pointing out.

One wonders if the man they saw wasn't in fact known personally to Harris and/or Levy, but not to Lawende, which would explain some of the strange behaviours afterwards.

Cheers,
Adam.

I suppose an alternative explanation is that they were both inaccurate, and the fella with Eddowes was about 5'5 (two inches out from both witnesses seems a plausible variance).

What would be the statistical chances of recognising him? I suppose it doesn't matter how tightly packed into an area, you have only so much time in your life to make friends and meet people. Was it something like 80,000 people crammed into the Whitechapel/Spitalfields area?

[Hunter]

In his Oct. 19 Home Office report, Swanson probably mentioned two men sighting Eddowes and a man at the entrance to Church Passage because it was two (Lawende and Levy) who testified at the inquest and Harris would be irrelevent for such a report... or he was not aware of Harris at that time (although I doubt that). He gives, not only the height of the man described by Lawende, but the general description as well. That was what was circulated around the City and Met Departments. His purpose at this point was to compare this sighting with those at Berner St. in a report on the Berner St. murder.

In Swanson's Nov. 6 report, which summarized the Metropolitan Police's activities concerning the Mitre Square murder, he does mention 'Three Jews' that left the club and goes into more detail about the other two taking
'little notice' and the positions of the man and woman at Church Passage as seen by Lawende. All of this within a time line spelled out by Swanson on relevant persons pertaining to that particular murder.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hunter,

The description of the man seen by "two men coming out of a club" (19th Oct report).

If you didn't know that Levy had stated 5'3, then the above would strongly suggest two men gave the same description.

Whichver way you look at it, it's inaccurate; two men (Lawende and Levy) did not give that description. The only explanation that would guarantee the accuracy of the report is that the two men were Harris and Lawende.

To me, it is bizarre that a senior policeman would make such a schoolboy error of taking one description and suggesting it was agreed upon by someone who clearly didn't agree.

Particularly given the importance of the sighting to the investigation, and the potential to send everyone scampering off looking for a fella of 5'7' when it was clearly possible that Levy was correct and he was 5'3.

[caz]

Imagine Lawende being sought out, years after the event, to try and 'identify' Kosminski as the man he saw with Eddowes.

Firstly, he said at the time that he doubted he would recognise the man again.

Secondly, he is brought face to face with a man he does recognise as clearly Jewish, which appears to throw him somewhat.

Not surprising if his vague to non-existent recollection is of a Gentile in a sailor's cap. No wonder he isn't going to identify this Jew as the probable murderer.

But this reaction may have been mistaken for confirmation that he recognised the man but then had second thoughts about saying so formally on account of him being a fellow Jew - which always sounded a duff note to me. How the devil could Lawende have recognised the man again, but not known he was Jewish until the second encounter?

Love,

Caz
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[Fleetwood Mac]

Imagine Lawende being sought out, years after the event, to try and 'identify' Kosminski as the man he saw with Eddowes.

Significant event...once he realised he may have seen Jack the image could well have stuck with him.

In terms of Jewish, not many will have been 'fair'.

[Adam Went]

Just playing devil's advocate here, I would suggest that the comparison between statements of Lawende, Levy and/or Harris, is of somewhat less importance than the comparison of statements between the most detailed of the 3, being Lawende, and those of the Berner Street witnesses, particularly Israel Schwartz.

Being a Pipeman as JTR theorist, i'm struggling to reconcile the near 6 foot tall Pipeman to the barely 5 foot tall Lawende/Levy suspect.....hmm...

Cheers,
Adam.

[Monty]

There's a report (admittedly newspaper) of two men observing JTR, with Eddowes, from the Orange Market (half 1ish).

Could these be Swanson's two men? Probably not as he mentions them coming out of the club. Still, it's intriguing why he said two men coming out of the club, when there were three, and the two of the three men who gave descriptions didn't agree on height!

Something that may intrigue you Fleetwood.

I came across it last night.


East London Observer
Saturday, 6 October 1888


What People Say.

Both murders must have been accomplished with an almost unnatural amount of secrecy, and without a cry being heard from either of the victims, judging from the statements made by those who were within a few yards of the place at the time. Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street. Similarly, Morris, the night watchman of the warehouses in Mitre-square; Pearce, the constable who was sleeping in the house just opposite the scene of the murder; Mr. Levy, the caretaker of the Great Synagogue just by the square; Mr. Klapp, the caretaker of some other premises whose windows look on the scene of the crime; Mr. Carle, the manager of the club in St. James'-place; Mr. Ayres and Mr. W. Isaacs, also of St. James'-place; or Mr. S. Goldberg, of Duke-street, who were all awake at the time, heard no suspicious sound - no cry for help whatever.

Monty

[caz]

Significant event...once he realised he may have seen Jack the image could well have stuck with him.

In terms of Jewish, not many will have been 'fair'.

Hmmm, but imagine the man Lawende saw was Kosminski, and he recognised him again at the Seaside Home because the image had stuck fast. Would the man's Jewishness have come as an uncomfortable surprise to him? Seriously?

Can't see it myself.

Love,

Caz
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