Lawende's trade

[Fleetwood Mac]

Mr. Carle, the manager of the club in St. James'-place; Mr. Ayres and Mr. W. Isaacs, also of St. James'-place; or Mr. S. Goldberg, of Duke-street, who were all awake at the time, heard no suspicious sound - no cry for help whatever. [/I]

Monty

Problem being that Swanson talks of the two men coming out of the club, Monty.

According to the article I read, the two men in the Orange Market/St James gave a similar description to Lawende, and perhaps this tipped the balance away from Levy in Swanson's mind; although I'm confused as to how someone/anyone could see the corner of Church Passage/Duke Street from the Orange Market?

Edited to add: the article didn't state standing at the corner, rather actually in Church Passage.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hmmm, but imagine the man Lawende saw was Kosminski, and he recognised him again at the Seaside Home because the image had stuck fast. Would the man's Jewishness have come as an uncomfortable surprise to him? Seriously?

Can't see it myself.

Love,

Caz
X

Wasn't he supposed to have acknowledged that he was the man but wouldn't testify against him?

I don't buy it at all.

You'd just say: "naaahhh, not him" rather than risk the wrath of the police by saying: "oh aye, that's the fella, but f you".

And, I don't go along with the 'Jew wouldn't shop a Jew' theory. I'm sure it's a matter of personal ethics.

And to answer the question: no, he would have been well aware he was Jewish from 9/10 feet away with the description he gave.

But then I don't fancy a Jewish fella for this!

[Monty]

Fleetwood,

I'm assuming you are referring to the Telegraph clipping found in the Met files?

Tom Wescott and I discussed this at some length a few years back and the conclusion drawn was that it was a misreporting of Lewande and Cos sighting.

I don't recall a club in St James place (though I freely admit I'm working from memory here) though there was The Jewellery Mart pub.

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood,

I'm assuming you are referring to the Telegraph clipping found in the Met files?

Tom Wescott and I discussed this at some length a few years back and the conclusion drawn was that it was a misreporting of Lewande and Cos sighting.

I don't recall a club in St James place (though I freely admit I'm working from memory here) though there was The Jewellery Mart pub.

Monty

That's the one, Monty.

It would explain why these men weren't called to the inquest.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The other thing about this is that as Levy was right about Eddowes' height, then it lends weight to having the man's height right, which would squarely put the oft cited short man back in the frame.

[GregBaron]

Good guess sir?

The other thing about this is that as Levy was right about Eddowes' height, then it lends weight to having the man's height right, which would squarely put the oft cited short man back in the frame.

I agree Fleetwood..........since he got Eddowes right on the nose...(sorry bad phrase there)....maybe he's quite a good judge of height........on the other hand, knowing that the average Whitechapel woman was probably 5' to 5'2", maybe he just pulled an average out of the air. I tend to go with the former...

The question then becomes ............could this short, rough sailor be BS man...........?

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

I agree Fleetwood..........since he got Eddowes right on the nose...(sorry bad phrase there)....maybe he's quite a good judge of height........on the other hand, knowing that the average Whitechapel woman was probably 5' to 5'2", maybe he just pulled an average out of the air. I tend to go with the former...

The question then becomes ............could this short, rough sailor be BS man...........?

Greg

Or Blotchy - the fair fella.

Or even Hutchinson. Mind you our 'military appearance' man might not square with the 'rough looking' fella.

Just my simple logic:

1) Blotchy is the only man seen in her home.
2) She is killed in her home.
3) Therefore Blotchy is a decent suspect.

Even more so that apparently he's moving around 'noiselessly', which could be the advantage that meant he took what appears to us to be unnecessary risks.

I always liked Blotchy for poor old Mary. The reason being he's in her home, and with a quart of beer he's going nowhere in a hurry.

[GregBaron]

Sailor or foundryman?

Or Blotchy - the fair fella.

Or even Hutchinson. Mind you our 'military appearance' man might not square with the 'rough looking' fella.

Just my simple logic:

1) Blotchy is the only man seen in her home.
2) She is killed in her home.
3) Therefore Blotchy is a decent suspect.

Even more so that apparently he's moving around 'noiselessly', which could be the advantage that meant he took what appears to us to be unnecessary risks.

I always liked Blotchy for poor old Mary. The reason being he's in her home, and with a quart of beer he's going nowhere in a hurry.

I like it Fleetwood. We can even throw in Ada Wilson's fair faced attacker. We now have this red faced, fair mustachioed roughneck potentially at the site of 2 murders and an assault. We've discussed this before....to get a red face in London at this time of year probably requires that the guy is a sailor or works in a foundry.......I don't think it's Feigenbaum but (and now to use our favorite phrase) perhaps it's someone like him...........?

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

I like it Fleetwood. We can even throw in Ada Wilson's fair faced attacker. We now have this red faced, fair mustachioed roughneck potentially at the site of 2 murders and an assault. We've discussed this before....to get a red face in London at this time of year probably requires that the guy is a sailor or works in a foundry.......I don't think it's Feigenbaum but (and now to use our favorite phrase) perhaps it's someone like him...........?

Greg

Apparently a blotchy face was a common thing among people indulging in a diet of meat and beer, Greg. Having said that, 'blotchy face' doesn't come up much among descriptions of people involved in the case.

A blotchy face was common among the military - those serving in hot climes.

I would go for someone like Grainger/Grant, Sadler (although it appears he was otherwise engaged in sailing activities) or Cutbush.

Not necessarily them, but someone like them.

According to Cox, Blotchy was short, fair and 'very shabby'; according to Levy the man was short and rough. He could be the man, but if he is the man then he doesn't fit any of the known suspects.

I haven't read about Ada Wilson, so I'll have a look with interest.

I like Blotchy for it, but there's little point in pursuing him as he disappeared without trace. On the plus side, perhaps the special branch ledgers mention a wild, blotchy faced Irishman skilled in the gutting of defenceless women.

[GregBaron]

Full of blotchy faces...

Apparently a blotchy face was a common thing among people indulging in a diet of meat and beer, Greg. Having said that, 'blotchy face' doesn't come up much among descriptions of people involved in the case.

A blotchy face was common among the military - those serving in hot climes.

I would go for someone like Grainger/Grant, Sadler (although it appears he was otherwise engaged in sailing activities) or Cutbush.

Not necessarily them, but someone like them.

According to Cox, Blotchy was short, fair and 'very shabby'; according to Levy the man was short and rough. He could be the man, but if he is the man then he doesn't fit any of the known suspects.

I haven't read about Ada Wilson, so I'll have a look with interest.

I like Blotchy for it, but there's little point in pursuing him as he disappeared without trace. On the plus side, perhaps the special branch ledgers mention a wild, blotchy faced Irishman skilled in the gutting of defenceless women.

I'm not sure about the blotchy face diet Fleetwood but I'll take your word for it...........not an attractive feature I would suggest..........

I also think it someone like Grainger......but shorter and more psychotic.......

I don't believe in any of the top suspects so this description not matching any doesn't bother me.......I would definitely answer none of the above to the top 10 list.........that's why I like this guy..........the unknown guy of Whitechapel......

The Ada Wilson guy could be Jack getting his chops........that's the belief of some.........

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

The Ada Wilson guy could be Jack getting his chops........that's the belief of some.........

Greg

Depends on his background, Greg. A military man could well have been aware of how to kill quickly, and as such didn't need to learn the ropes.

Of all those listed in the victims section outside of the C5, to my mind Coles is by far and away the most likely to have been a ripper victim. The lack of mutilation is irrelevant because the murderer is clearly still at the scene and whether or not he intended to mutilate, he clearly didn't have the time. Oh, and on the Sadler thing, a drunk man can kill quite easily. I'd really like to know whether or not it is definitive that Sadler was at sea at the time of 4 of the killings.

[Hunter]

Hunter,

The description of the man seen by "two men coming out of a club" (19th Oct report).
If you didn't know that Levy had stated 5'3, then the above would strongly suggest two men gave the same description.
Whichver way you look at it, it's inaccurate; two men (Lawende and Levy) did not give that description. The only explanation that would guarantee the accuracy of the report is that the two men were Harris and Lawende.

To me, it is bizarre that a senior policeman would make such a schoolboy error of taking one description and suggesting it was agreed upon by someone who clearly didn't agree.
Particularly given the importance of the sighting to the investigation, and the potential to send everyone scampering off looking for a fella of 5'7' when it was clearly possible that Levy was correct and he was 5'3.

Levy's description of the woman's height (5') appeared in the Daily Telegraph, and some other press reports of the Eddowes inquest. Levy's written statement, nor any of the official reports that have survived mention the woman's height, which was probably what Swanson relied on in preparing his Oct. 19 summary to the Home Office on the Stride investigation. In these, only the suggestion that the 'man might have been three inches taller than the woman' was given.

It was Lawende's description that was circulated by City Police and Swanson must have relied on their judgment on this murder perpetrated within their jurisdiction.

[Monty]

Something that may intrigue you Fleetwood.

I came across it last night.


East London Observer
Saturday, 6 October 1888


What People Say.

Both murders must have been accomplished with an almost unnatural amount of secrecy, and without a cry being heard from either of the victims, judging from the statements made by those who were within a few yards of the place at the time. Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street. Similarly, Morris, the night watchman of the warehouses in Mitre-square; Pearce, the constable who was sleeping in the house just opposite the scene of the murder; Mr. Levy, the caretaker of the Great Synagogue just by the square; Mr. Klapp, the caretaker of some other premises whose windows look on the scene of the crime; Mr. Carle, the manager of the club in St. James'-place; Mr. Ayres and Mr. W. Isaacs, also of St. James'-place; or Mr. S. Goldberg, of Duke-street, who were all awake at the time, heard no suspicious sound - no cry for help whatever.

Monty

Bishopsgate Police Orders 2 Sept 1889.

Is this Mr Issacs of St James Place?

[Roy Corduroy]

Is Lewis after Isaacs and before Coffee?

[Roy Corduroy]

He dealt in the cigarette trade.

Lawende's employer on Fenchurch Street, not far from the Imperial Club.


This pub was nearby on Fenchurch and is still open.