Schwartz, a fraud?

[c.d.]

Hi c.d. I don't know- panic maybe as Stride had screamed and he had just been seen by a witness?

But what was there to panic about? At that point (Schwartz running off) all he had done was push her. Hardly a hanging offense.

c.d.

[Joshua Rogan]

What time is marked by the first official here...Lamb? Just before 1am he sees 2 men running towards him to tell him about the murder. How many people did he see around the body...about 30. At around 1am. When did Blackwell hear about the event...about 10 minutes after 1.
What time did Johnson learn of the crime...a few minutes after 1am. That would be about the time Louis is calling upstairs for help by his story, correct? So who told Johnson and when did they learn of this?

I'm pretty sure Johnson learned of the murder at the same time as Blackwell, ie around 1:10 by Blackwell's timing, since he went back to the yard with the PC who informed them both. Which means he would have arrived at the yard around 1:12. Blackwell following once he had dressed, arriving 1:16
Lamb estimated that he had been there 10-12 minutes when Blackwell arrived, so somewhere around 01:04 to 01:06 would seem likely. Which seems reasonably in line with Louis' avowed discovery time.

However, as Lamb himself admitted " I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time."

[Herlock Sholmes]

. However, as Lamb himself admitted " I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time

Michael doesn’t understand or accept this though Joshua. To him if someone says ‘around 3.00’ then that’s it. If someone else says 3.05 then it’s a lie therefore a cover up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Speak for yourself only Herlock, you havent been given the right or opportunity to speak for everyone.

Of course everyone can speak for themselves. They have done. No one agrees with your theory.

I knew you wouldnt ever agree a while ago when I read arguments so weak they cant stand up by themselves without you shouting OBVIOUS from the roof top. I gave you a scenario that explains and validates the majority of witness statements with respect to time and explains why Louis would lie about a discovery time...because we have fixed times by medical authorities and policemen times dont we?

A scenario isn’t a solution. And please don’t try the policeman trap. A policeman without a watch can be mistaken too.

In fact...heres a way to explain yourself so EVERYONE can make sense of your argument.

Im not in the overwhelming minority here. You do see that don’t you?

Louis arrives at "precisely" 1am. You buy Louis whole hog so you have to be on board with his insistence in this matter, yes? His horse shies, he gets off the cart, lights a match, runs inside to find his wife, then summons members from upstairs.

No. How does he ‘summon’ members from upstairs? From what we know it appears that Gilleman went upstairs.

How long did that take?

Diemschutz could have gone in the club and come back out within a minute of getting back. 30 seconds even. So let’s say 1.00 and 30 seconds.

What time is marked by the first official here...Lamb? Just before 1am he sees 2 men running towards him to tell him about the murder.

As Joshua points out Lamb admitted to estimating as he had no watch (it’s in black and white) so I certainly don’t hold him to that time. I’d say that it was around 1.03/1.04 ish.

How many people did he see around the body...about 30. At around 1am

Possibly 1.05 ish. Give or take...

. When did Blackwell hear about the event...about 10 minutes after 1.
What time did Johnson learn of the crime...a few minutes after 1am. That would be about the time Louis is calling upstairs for help by his story, correct? So who told Johnson and when did they learn of this?

Obvious manipulation of course. Where does it say that Louis called upstairs? There was a downstairs room too. If he went inside the side door and spoke to his wife and Gilleman probably heard him and went upstairs to tell the other members. Eagle came down and saw the body. He said ‘at 1.00’ but it was obviously more like 1.02 ish. When the three returned from there search for a police officer Lamb sent a police officer who got to Johnson at 1.10. I see no issue without your manipulations of course.

What time did Reid learn of this...by telegram no less...1:25.
How does Lamb see 2 men running for help before Louis even arrived? Seems Issac K also saw them coming back together, as he was returning. Around or just before 1am.

He didn’t. He had no watch. He was mistaken. It’s not difficult stuff Michael.

How do 30 Jews suddenly gather round the body as soon as Louis arrives..."precisely" at 1, so that they are all there just after 1...when Lamb says he arrives then.

Some walk down some stairs and out of a door some just walk out of a door. It’s not a difficult concept Michael. Lamb got there around 1,05 by which time the club members were in the yard.

I know you like contesting the words directly from sources you disagree with, like Spooner, Issac Kozebrodksi, Gillen (no such person)


and Heschberg, but youre a Diemshitz supporter so that should be fine with you.
Does Louis leave with Issacs a few minutes after 1 when Lamb is already there?

Do I have to keep typing “Lamb had no watch and so was mistaken?”

How can 4 independent witnesses who have no prior consultations together give a discovery time that are all 15-20 minutes before Louis says he arrives?

I’ve told you numerous times Michael. But obviously with your very selective and biased analysis what can be done?

How can Louis arrive "precisely" at 1am when Fanny Mortimer a few doors down is at her door at that time watching the street and she sees or hears nothing?

She said that she went back inside and only came back out when she heard the commotion. Can you look at ANY evidence without manipulating to suit? Noticeably she didn’t see or hear Louis returning at 12.35 either. Why? Oh yeah, because he didn’t.

You think Louis and Issac Kozebrodsky went for help together...despite Issac saying he went by himself at 12:40...so, what is the earliest possible time that could have happened?

Kozebrodski might have simply set off before Louis with Louis behind him. I’d guess at around 1.02. Certainly not at 12.40 of course. I mean come on....who’d actually believe that?

Right about when Lamb says he arrives, right? Explain that.

Lamb-watch-error.

I have no doubt that there will be disputing witnesses own words without demonstrated justification, creative use of time, and accepting that which can be contradicted by many sources.

You know you could have avoided all this by correct phrasing of your argument and mere acceptance of contradictory evidence to your premise, but you pissed me off by taking such a high and mighty "obvious" correctness I couldnt let it pass. Youve called witnesses liars without citing why that should be the case...Ive told you a viable motive for Louis and Morris to have lied and even pointed out how Eagle left possible an earlier time for Liz to have been there just by his hedging, there is no obvious or reasonable motive for any of the 4 witnesses to lie about the exact same times time without first collaborating on a 15-20 minute discrepancy ....youve assumed that Lamb is incorrect, that Louis discovering the body just after 1 is still just fine despite Lambs evidence, and that Louis just discovering the body after 1 still works with Johnson being told of it within a very few minutes, youve imagined Fanny simply not being at her door for key events despite the fact she says herself "nearly the whole time between 12:30 and 1", ....the liberties youve taken and the errors youve made make all this unworkable...so your obvious solution is just your own opinion, which can be dealt with easily by facts alone.

The very fact that you believe any answer to any of the pertinent questions on this and the other murders, questions that have been debated by scholars for over 130 years, really just have obvious answers in your opinion just shows a lack of knowledge of the facts and of basic math. And insults all the pople who have debated the questions. Fact is....They dont all work together,..the statements as they are do not give us a cohesive 30 minutes. The only way you make an argument is by selecting facts, unfortunately you make no sensible argument why these facts should be set aside. Because its obvious to you? Pleeeze..

Laughable, biased, ego-driven, manipulation-riddled, totally disproven nonsense.

THERE WAS NO COVER UP. ITS A FANTASY THAT ONLY YOU BELIEVE MICHAEL.

[Sunny Delight]

But what was there to panic about? At that point (Schwartz running off) all he had done was push her. Hardly a hanging offense.

c.d.

I meant that he decided to continue with the attack but after i initially killing Stride decided better of it and left the scene instead- maybe in a panic that Pipeman could return? I suppose I was thinking something along these lines:

The Ripper accosts Stride, is seen by Schwartz and yells 'Lipski' at him as a local anti- Jewish slur.

Schwartz sees Pipeman but so does the Ripper. Stride had screamed 3 times as she fell so possibly Pipeman hears this. Schwartz legs it and Pipeman who thinks he has just attacked Stride follows him.

The Ripper continues the attack. He kills Stride but thinks Pipeman might return to check on the couple? Maybe they were victims of a robbery in his mind?

I am not saying that this is exactly what the Ripper thought. We will never know. But it is a possibility. He then flees the seen passing Mortimer's house which is in a direction leaves a longer distance to cover before turning onto another street but means he won't run into a returning Pipeman??

[FrankO]

What time is marked by the first official here...Lamb? Just before 1am he sees 2 men running towards him to tell him about the murder. How many people did he see around the body...about 30. At around 1am. When did Blackwell hear about the event...about 10 minutes after 1.
What time did Johnson learn of the crime...a few minutes after 1am. That would be about the time Louis is calling upstairs for help by his story, correct?

OK, doing the same sort of exercise (sticking to the exact timings as given by the newspaper/inquest statements) for the period between half past 12 and a little after one o’clock, then this is what your proposal would look like, Michael:

• 12.30 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep, but doesn’t see Charles Letchford pass
• Ca. 12.31 am Mortimer goes back inside
• Ca. 12.32 am Stide & companion arrive opposite the club/Mortimer’s house
• Ca. 12.33 am PC Smith sees Stride & companion opposite the club
• Ca. 12.34 am Mr. Harris hears a policeman’s whistle
• 12.35 am Spooner runs to the yard, where he sees about 15 people
• Ca. 12.36 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again
• Ca. 12.38 am Mortimer goes back inside
• Ca. 12.39 am Diemshutz arrives in the yard & discovers Stride’s body
• 12.40 am Diemshutz goes inside & brings Kozebrodski to the yard and then sends him for a policeman, just as 2 other unknown Jews go running & shouting for a PC
• 12.40 am Eagle enters the club by the side door but doesn’t stumble over Stride’s body
• 12.40 am Gilleman goes upstairs and alerts Eagle
• Ca. 12.41 am Brown leaves his house to get some supper and walks west along Fairclough Street towards Berner Street
• Ca. 12.42 am the 2 unknown Jews return to the yard without a policeman but with Spooner
• 12.45 am Brown leaves the chandler’s shop and sees a couple standing by the board school
• 12.45 am Heshburg hears a policeman’s whistle
• Ca. 12.50 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again
• Ca. 12.55 am Mortimer sees Leon Goldstein pass
• Ca. 1 am Eagle finally goes into the yard & sees Stride’s body
• Ca. 1 am PC Lamb arrives in the yard & sees about 30 people, but Mortimer doesn’t see him pass her door
• 1:00:59 am Mortimer locks up & goes back inside
• Ca. 1.02 am Mortimer hears a pony cart pass
• Ca. 1.03 am Mortimer hears commotion/call for police & then goes outside to see what’s the matter

Does this sound about right to you?

[Herlock Sholmes]

OK, doing the same sort of exercise (sticking to the exact timings as given by the newspaper/inquest statements) for the period between half past 12 and a little after one o’clock, then this is what your proposal would look like, Michael:

• 12.30 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep, but doesn’t see Charles Letchford pass
• Ca. 12.31 am Mortimer goes back inside
• Ca. 12.32 am Stide & companion arrive opposite the club/Mortimer’s house
• Ca. 12.33 am PC Smith sees Stride & companion opposite the club
• Ca. 12.34 am Mr. Harris hears a policeman’s whistle
• 12.35 am Spooner runs to the yard, where he sees about 15 people
• Ca. 12.36 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again
• Ca. 12.38 am Mortimer goes back inside
• Ca. 12.39 am Diemshutz arrives in the yard & discovers Stride’s body
• 12.40 am Diemshutz goes inside & brings Kozebrodski to the yard and then sends him for a policeman, just as 2 other unknown Jews go running & shouting for a PC
• 12.40 am Eagle enters the club by the side door but doesn’t stumble over Stride’s body
• 12.40 am Gilleman goes upstairs and alerts Eagle
• Ca. 12.41 am Brown leaves his house to get some supper and walks west along Fairclough Street towards Berner Street
• Ca. 12.42 am the 2 unknown Jews return to the yard without a policeman but with Spooner
• 12.45 am Brown leaves the chandler’s shop and sees a couple standing by the board school
• 12.45 am Heshburg hears a policeman’s whistle
• Ca. 12.50 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again
• Ca. 12.55 am Mortimer sees Leon Goldstein pass
• Ca. 1 am Eagle finally goes into the yard & sees Stride’s body
• Ca. 1 am PC Lamb arrives in the yard & sees about 30 people, but Mortimer doesn’t see him pass her door
• 1:00:59 am Mortimer locks up & goes back inside
• Ca. 1.02 am Mortimer hears a pony cart pass
• Ca. 1.03 am Mortimer hears commotion/call for police & then goes outside to see what’s the matter

Does this sound about right to you?

Cracked it Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wonder if Michael can explain how, if Diemschutz discovered the body at 12.35 and he and other members then went into conference to decide on a plan of action to ensure that the police didn’t accuse them of hosting the latest ripper murder, did Spooner get to the yard at 12.35? Perhaps Diemschutz sent him a text?

Could this cover up get any deader?

[Varqm]

First of all, Hungarian is a very complex language, there also are various local dialects which make translating it quite difficult, even for a native speaker. Second, it is not proven that Schwartz really was a native to Hungary, his name sounds more German with a Slavic background to me. How he ended up being a Hungarian Jew is also not not known, he could have simply ended up in Hungary like so many other Jews who fled the Russian pogroms and spoke a mix of Russian, Hungarian and Yiddish, which would have required a translator with quite specific language skills.

In order to answer the questions at an inquest, you have to have a basic knowledge of the English language. You not only have to be able to answer the Coroner's questions but also contextual questions by the Jury, and this is impossible if you are unable to follow the conversation due to language barriers. A possible interpreter not only would have had to speak the exact idiom of Schwartz but also would have had to translate all comments by everyone present at the inquest to enable him to answer the questions posed to him to the best of his ability. I think we both agree that this would not have been possible without prologing the inquest to ridiculous dimensions, that is why Wynne Baxter most probably went with the written statement Schwartz made to the police.

There was an interpreter when he made his first police statement - whoever the interpreter was would suffice, and also when he did the STAR interview,they have local people,universities,etc..His sighting was too important.They had several days to do the inquest.It would not have taken that long,the sighting was 1-2 minutes long,there would have been no problem.

[c.d.]

Hello Varqm,

This is copied from another post I wrote. The problem is not in finding an interpreter.

Coroner to Schwartz: What did the woman say to the man?

Interpreter: He doesn't know. He doesn't understand English.

Coroner to Schwartz: What did the man say to the woman?

Interpreter: He doesn't know. He doesn't understand English.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There was an interpreter when he made his first police statement - whoever the interpreter was would suffice, and also when he did the STAR interview,they have local people,universities,etc..His sighting was too important.They had several days to do the inquest.It would not have taken that long,the sighting was 1-2 minutes long,there would have been no problem.

I have to ask again Varqm. At an inquiry looking into the ‘how’ and ‘when’ she died what information of vital importance would Schwartz have been able to add?

[Michael W Richards]

I'm pretty sure Johnson learned of the murder at the same time as Blackwell, ie around 1:10 by Blackwell's timing, since he went back to the yard with the PC who informed them both. Which means he would have arrived at the yard around 1:12. Blackwell following once he had dressed, arriving 1:16
Lamb estimated that he had been there 10-12 minutes when Blackwell arrived, so somewhere around 01:04 to 01:06 would seem likely. Which seems reasonably in line with Louis' avowed discovery time.

However, as Lamb himself admitted " I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time."

Johnson said just after 1, so........and he was at home...but I guess for the Herlocks, he didnt have access to timepieces either.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael doesn’t understand or accept this though Joshua. To him if someone says ‘around 3.00’ then that’s it. If someone else says 3.05 then it’s a lie therefore a cover up.

Ive never said times were fixed, Ive always said the men who said they were summoned to the yard was at between 12:40 and 12:45...never said Spooner was precisely at 12:35..like your fella Louis felt compelled to add....never said that a few minutes either was was a problem. I do wish you would quit misrepresenting everything everyone I and everyone else says...maybe just leave their quotes alone and try and make your own argument,... if you cant be accurate that is.

You seem to be claiming victory here by calling the majority of the corroborated timings all incorrect by 20 minutes....thats a victory for you huh? Call everyone a liar and then smirk?

Youve been proven incorrect, inaccurate and naive...I wont bother showing those quotes and misrepresenting them though.. Ill just let other people read what you wrote.

[Michael W Richards]

OK, doing the same sort of exercise (sticking to the exact timings as given by the newspaper/inquest statements) for the period between half past 12 and a little after one o’clock, then this is what your proposal would look like, Michael:

• 12.30 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep, but doesn’t see Charles Letchford pass Fine, not relevant
• Ca. 12.31 am Mortimer goes back insideFine
• Ca. 12.32 am Stide & companion arrive opposite the club/Mortimer’s house Speculative
• Ca. 12.33 am PC Smith sees Stride & companion opposite the club Fine
• Ca. 12.34 am Mr. Harris hears a policeman’s whistle Not relevant
• 12.35 am Spooner runs to the yard, where he sees about 15 people Closer to 12:40
• Ca. 12.36 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep againSpeculative
• Ca. 12.38 am Mortimer goes back insideSpeculative
• Ca. 12.39 am Diemshutz arrives in the yard & discovers Stride’s body Likely
• 12.40 am Diemshutz goes inside & brings Kozebrodski to the yard and then sends him for a policeman, just as 2 other unknown Jews go running & shouting for a PC Thats the story Issac gives and 3 others were also there along with quite a few others
• 12.40 am Eagle enters the club by the side door but doesn’t stumble over Stride’s bodyEagle comes in and finds everyone there, he lies about it...and hedges his statement just in case hes caught.
• 12.40 am Gilleman goes upstairs and alerts EagleEagles words, which can be discarded if we know he is already lying about what happened when he arrives
• Ca. 12.41 am Brown leaves his house to get some supper and walks west along Fairclough Street towards Berner StreetBrown is only relevant to corroborate the young couple
• Ca. 12.42 am the 2 unknown Jews return to the yard without a policeman but with SpoonerFine
• 12.45 am Brown leaves the chandler’s shop and sees a couple standing by the board schoolNot relevant
• 12.45 am Heshburg hears a policeman’s whistleNot relevant
• Ca. 12.50 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again...Yes
• Ca. 12.55 am Mortimer sees Leon Goldstein pass Yes
• Ca. 1 am Eagle finally goes into the yard & sees Stride’s body Already dealt with him above, his "peel mell' trip down the stairs is akin to Schwartz's incontinent fleeing...dramatic but not accurate.
• Ca. 1 am PC Lamb arrives in the yard & sees about 30 people, but Mortimer doesn’t see him pass her door Arrives just after 1, like he said..she is inside
• 1:00:59 am Mortimer locks up & goes back inside
• Ca. 1.02 am Mortimer hears a pony cart passWhose cart and horse, and which direction? If you dont know, not relevant
• Ca. 1.03 am Mortimer hears commotion/call for police & then goes outside to see what’s the matter Fine

Does this sound about right to you?

Sometime between 12:40 and 1am Louis and Morris go for help in different directions, Issac K sees Eagle returning with Lamb as he returns...just after 1.. and joins them.

This all has become so tedious Franko, no offense, but if you or anyone else cant accept that Louis and Morris decided how the timeline should be presented because their livelihoods were in peril, then I cant help you. And Im tired of explaining how people work to what should be knowledgeable grown ups. If dont cant get human nature and defensive lying...you probably shouldnt be reading material that requires interpretation based on some of that knowledge.

Louis lied about his arrival time, Fanny proves it, and Eagle doesnt say that Liz isnt there when he arrives at 12:40. He says he might have missed seeing her...which is, like Louis statement, a lie. He would have been unable to miss her...let alone the bunch of men gathering there.

I suppose this is all because people cant accept Stride is not a Ripper victim...which is shockingly obvious to me and others....and that the club full of anarchists and low men as seen and heard by neighbors often after meetings would lie to protect their incomes. Again, a shockingly obvious position to take...except here apparently.

WHAT IVE SAID ABOUT THIS MURDER HAS BEEN TWISTED, MISREPRESENTED, AND DISTORTED TO TRY AND SCORE BROWNIE POINTS I IMAGINE, IF ANYONE WANTS THE TRUTH OF WHAT I SAID THEY CAN READ THE POSTS THAT ARE NOT YET MISREPRESENTED BY UNSCRUPULOUS CHARACTERS, MORE INTERESTED IN FEELING CORRECT THEMSELVES, RATHER THAN SOLVING ANYTHING.

Im pretty sure that Ive been studying these cases longer than you, Herlock or anyone else who cant understand what is written and recorded. Ive read all the articles, the authors opinions, the press accounts, period histories, biographies...numerous times. And having to suffer through arguments with people that "obviously" have not done that research, or dont get it, is tiresome now.

Have your angelic anarchists who just want to help others. And your Ripper who doesnt Rip sometimes. Your interruptions without any validation in evidence, your star witness who is left out of the Inquest completely, and your group error by 4 people all getting the story wrong by exactly the same 20 minutes.

Its just so obvious after all isnt it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ive never said times were fixed, Ive always said the men who said they were summoned to the yard was at between 12:40 and 12:45...never said Spooner was precisely at 12:35..like your fella Louis felt compelled to add....never said that a few minutes either was was a problem. I do wish you would quit misrepresenting everything everyone I and everyone else says...maybe just leave their quotes alone and try and make your own argument,... if you cant be accurate that is.

You seem to be claiming victory here by calling the majority of the corroborated timings all incorrect by 20 minutes....thats a victory for you huh? Call everyone a liar and then smirk?

Youve been proven incorrect, inaccurate and naive...I wont bother showing those quotes and misrepresenting them though.. Ill just let other people read what you wrote.

Victory was claimed long ago because your theory is a non-starter which has been dismissed by everyone that’s heard it. You are blind to this fact though. How long have you been going on about this? Do you think that no one has looked into it? What’s the verdict Michael.

You are the one misrepresenting Michael because you are hopelessly biased. I keep asking why you don't assess but simply select to suit but not once have you responded properly. I’ll use a very simplified question:

WHEN YOU LOOK AT SPOONER’S STATEMENT WHY DO YOU ACCEPT THE ‘12.35’ PART BUT COMPLETELY DISREGARD THE ‘5 MINUTES BEFORE LAMB’ PART?

We all know the answer btw but hey you might give an straight response for a change.