Schwartz, a fraud?

[lynn cates]

Bagster

Hello Mike. Thanks.

"As you can see, if Mrs Long was correct the killer began the entire attack in daylight and there is no explanation for how the body would be cold in less than 1 hour."

Well, the body was ALMOST completely cold. But Dr. Phillips did make a suggestion about that.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Sorry, Mike. I thought you were arguing for an earlier time.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell,

No problem at all, just wanted to make sure my mini-thesis gets defended.

Lynn,

Well, I know he said "The body was cold, except that there was a certain remaining heat, under the intestines, in the body", and this answer to how long she had been dead.. "I should say at least two hours, and probably more; but it is right to say that it was a fairly cold morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from its having lost the greater portion of its blood."

His comments make me feel comfortable with a death close to an hour before he arrived on site. Which is what it would have been had Cadosche heard the killing begin. It would not be compatible with her being brought to the spot after 5:30am, in daylight I might add.

I just dont believe her "positive" ID is valid based on the cumulative data Lynn.

Best regards,

Mike R

[lynn cates]

Farewell to Annie.

Hello Mike. Thanks.

And I'd better be quiet about Annie and let the Schwartz people speak.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I admit it is refreshing when we have a witness claim a time that can be confirmed by a Brewers clock,, but she opens her remarks by stating she passed by 29 at "about half past 5". I dont know the exact geographical specs here, meaning I dont know the distance from where she heard the brewers clock not yet on Hanbury to the point where she sees the couple but in her own words it would seem perhaps 15 minutes had passed between clock bell and her arrival at #29.

It doesn't help of course when we cannot be certain where Mrs Long was when the Brewers clock struck.

The Times:
"She was certain of the time, as the brewers' clock had just struck that time when she passed 29, Hanbury-street."

The Daily Telegraph:
"... I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street."

So where was she?

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

It doesn't help of course when we cannot be certain where Mrs Long was when the Brewers clock struck.

The Times:
"She was certain of the time, as the brewers' clock had just struck that time when she passed 29, Hanbury-street."

The Daily Telegraph:
"... I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street."

So where was she?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

As far as I can tell only one of those quotes is in first person, maybe that's an indicator.

Cheers Jon,

Mike R

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

As far as I can tell only one of those quotes is in first person, maybe that's an indicator.

Cheers Jon,

Mike R

Indeed Mike, and if we do take that path we effectively destroy the accepted paradigm. Mrs Long arrives too late..

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed Mike, and if we do take that path we effectively destroy the accepted paradigm. Mrs Long arrives too late..

Regards, Jon S.

Thats my take on it anyway Jon.

Cheers and Best regards,
Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

I would suggest that if two sources (in this case, DT and Times) don't agree, that before you 'eeny-meenie-minee-moe' it, you check other sources.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I don't need to "eenie-meanie" anything young fella, anymore than you need to teach "ma" how to suck eggs...

[moonbegger]

Sorry, Mike. I thought you were arguing for an earlier time.

Regards, Bridewell.

Evening All

Hate to jump into the goldfish bowl, but Annie WAS long dead by 5.30 am ..

cheers all

Moonbegger

[Bridewell]

Long Dead

Evening All

Hate to jump into the goldfish bowl, but Annie WAS long dead by 5.30 am ..

cheers all

Moonbegger

Hi MB,

Possibly so but, in that case, who or what did Cadosch hear fall against the fence*, and who removed him/her/it (& why?) between that time and the discovery of the body? If Cadosch was telling the truth someone was in that yard around 5.25am.

*Assuming that he heard anything at all of course!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Rubyretro]

Hi MB,

Possibly so but, in that case, who or what did Cadosch hear fall against the fence*, and who removed him/her/it (& why?) between that time and the discovery of the body? If Cadosch was telling the truth someone was in that yard around 5.25am.

*Assuming that he heard anything at all of course!

Regards, Bridewell.

My personal speculation is that the yard was used by different prostitutes and their clients, the door being open..

(I don't see that Annie would have found her way into the yard by accident
-she knew it was open and quiet at that time. If she knew it, then it stands to reasons that others would).

I cannot see how it is possible that mrs Long could quickly pass a couple in Hanbury Street, that she didn't know, when she was concerned with getting to work, and then positively identify the woman as Annie....but I do buy that she might have 'got' that she was passing a woman prostituting herself with a client ( that famous body language again).

Therefore (and taking into account that I believe that Annie died earlier
than is assumed now -due to the Doctor's opinion, and the fact that Jack
usually struck under cover of darkness ), I think that a prostitute and her client went into the yard between the time that Annie was killed and her body being officially discovered.

I can quite understand why a prostitute would not come forward to the police, and her client even less so, and become embroiled in this case.

I can also understand why stumbling (literally) on Annie's body might make
someone exclaim 'No!' and fall heavily against the fence.

[Wickerman]

I can also understand why stumbling (literally) on Annie's body might make
someone exclaim 'No!' and fall heavily against the fence.

So what happened to the Hollywood'esq earsplitting scream...


Regards, Jon S.

[Rubyretro]

So what happened to the Hollywood'esq earsplitting scream...


Regards, Jon S.

Well, maybe that scenario would have been too Hollywood'esq and the woman just exclaimed 'No!' and didn't bother to scream..you know, a subliminal desire to stay discreet ?

[Tom_Wescott]

Interesting thread. I didn't realize so many people thought Mrs. Long was mistaken in her evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott